[Rydell]

I have a huge pinch for the best headphone audio possible when gaming. I don't do mic stuff at all. But I'm underwhelmed when gaming. Music alone sounds better on my Macbook Pro, which from what I understand is because of its better built in DAC. I've also read about problems with my Desktop Computers sound chip(Realtek ALC887 DAP). I play a lot of games with explosions, shooting, etc. But besides the point. If music sounds significantly better on my Macbook Pro when I bought this audio setup for gaming on my Desktop, then I'm missing something that could be making my desktop audio much better. The headphones are equalized to balance out the sibilance these headphones are known to have, it's otherwise flat. My budget is $200 maybe 300.
 
Prepare for wall of questions:
 
Should I just do a USB DAC and bypass my sound chipset all together? I say USB DAC because there isn't anymore room inside my case, so it will have to be external.
 
Should I get an external sound card and DAC?
 
Should I toss out my amp and get a full combo setup and just replace it with something else?(don't need portable)
 
Is there a DAC that synergizes with the HE-400 / Cayin C5? Do I even have to worry about that?
 
Any other tips or suggestions you folks can make to aid in my search? Thank you!

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  I have a huge pinch for the best headphone audio possible when gaming. I don't do mic stuff at all. But I'm underwhelmed when gaming. Music alone sounds better on my Macbook Pro, which from what I understand is because of its better built in DAC. I've also read about problems with my Desktop Computers sound chip(Realtek ALC887 DAP). I play a lot of games with explosions, shooting, etc. But besides the point. If music sounds significantly better on my Macbook Pro when I bought this audio setup for gaming on my Desktop, then I'm missing something that could be making my desktop audio much better. The headphones are equalized to balance out the sibilance these headphones are known to have, it's otherwise flat. My budget is $200 maybe 300.
 
Prepare for wall of questions:
 
Should I just do a USB DAC and bypass my sound chipset all together? I say USB DAC because there isn't anymore room inside my case, so it will have to be external.

 
The primary consideration with a USB DAC, or any DAC if your motherboard has no DSP features for gaming, is that you lose virtual surround from the DSP, whether in a soundcard or built into the gaming motherboard.
 
That said, there's always Razer Surround, which is software-based and uses the CPU.
 
 

  Should I get an external sound card and DAC?

 
Or you can just use an external sound card with a decent line out - you still get a good DSP, and you can send a line signal to a headphone amplifier if you get headphones that need more power. You can even use the external soundcard with an easier to drive headphone then just send the signal through the amp when you'll listen to music with a planar for example.
 
Look into the Sound Blaster E5 or any roughly equivalent Xonar product, which has analogue line output and digital, plus a headphone output.
 

  Should I toss out my amp and get a full combo setup and just replace it with something else?(don't need portable)

 
Sound Blaster X7 has a powerful headphone amp, but personally its size and price isn't necessarily that great as opposed to spending a little bit more to get for example a Lyr with the E5, at least if your goal is to have a harder to drive headphone for music if not for games also.
 
 
 

  Is there a DAC that synergizes with the HE-400 / Cayin C5? Do I even have to worry about that?

 
The only thing I'd be concerned about with using for example the SB E5 with the C5 is the cable management. The E5 is designed as a desktop product despite its size, so the line outs are in the back. The C5 is a portable that looks like it's still taking into account how the iPod and Sony players have their line outs from the dock port in the bottom, and so to have the headphone socket and volume knob facing the user, the input is also on the front. You'd have at least one wire running from the rear of the E5 to the front of the C5. 
 
 
 
 

  Any other tips or suggestions you folks can make to aid in my search? Thank you!

 
As much as I mentioned SB products, look into Xonar - people have been bringing up driver issues with the Creative products.

 

[Rydell]

   
The primary consideration with a USB DAC, or any DAC if your motherboard has no DSP features for gaming, is that you lose virtual surround from the DSP, whether in a soundcard or built into the gaming motherboard.
 
That said, there's always Razer Surround, which is software-based and uses the CPU.
 
 
 
Or you can just use an external sound card with a decent line out - you still get a good DSP, and you can send a line signal to a headphone amplifier if you get headphones that need more power. You can even use the external soundcard with an easier to drive headphone then just send the signal through the amp when you'll listen to music with a planar for example.
 
Look into the Sound Blaster E5 or any roughly equivalent Xonar product, which has analogue line output and digital, plus a headphone output.
 
 
Sound Blaster X7 has a powerful headphone amp, but personally its size and price isn't necessarily that great as opposed to spending a little bit more to get for example a Lyr with the E5, at least if your goal is to have a harder to drive headphone for music if not for games also.
 
 
 
 
The only thing I'd be concerned about with using for example the SB E5 with the C5 is the cable management. The E5 is designed as a desktop product despite its size, so the line outs are in the back. The C5 is a portable that looks like it's still taking into account how the iPod and Sony players have their line outs from the dock port in the bottom, and so to have the headphone socket and volume knob facing the user, the input is also on the front. You'd have at least one wire running from the rear of the E5 to the front of the C5. 
 
 
 
 
 
As much as I mentioned SB products, look into Xonar - people have been bringing up driver issues with the Creative products.

 
Hey ProtegeManiac, appreciate the response and info. Yeah, not so much worried about surround sound, at all really. It’s just the “action” such as explosions and gun shots don’t have a sonic cracking drive that I know these headphones can do with their transient abilities. It’s almost like the frequencies aren’t separated enough to allow those hard hits and are instead a little drowned out. I don’t necessarily need a rumble in the bass(I have SZ2000’s for that), but if you reference music, it’s the cracking transients you would get from a kick drum. I think it's considered a "clean" bass that hits in the 80-120hz and 1.2k-1.8k range. I’ve tried mixing and that’s just a rabbit hole, so I just left it at cleaning up the HE-400’s sibilance. I'll definitely look into some external Xonar sound cards. Have you heard anything about the Dragonfly DAC? 
 
https://www.amazon.com/AudioQuest-DragonFly-Black-USB-Converter/dp/B01DP5JHHI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1466538021&sr=8-1&keywords=dragonfly+usb
 
 
Should also be noted that I haven't fully burned in these headphones. These were the first I've ever heard of that came with the manufacturer recommending a 150 hour burn in for the best sound quality in the manual. I'm at about 50-75 hours burn in at this point. Regardless, I can still tell the difference between my Macbook Pro and desktop while using the C5 amp on both.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rydell /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

Hey ProtegeManiac, appreciate the response and info. Yeah, not so much worried about surround sound, at all really. It’s just the “action” such as explosions and gun shots don’t have a sonic cracking drive that I know these headphones can do with their transient abilities. It’s almost like the frequencies aren’t separated enough to allow those hard hits and are instead a little drowned out. I don’t necessarily need a rumble in the bass(I have SZ2000’s for that), but if you reference music, it’s the cracking transients you would get from a kick drum. I think it's considered a "clean" bass that hits in the 80-120hz and 1.2k-1.8k range. I’ve tried mixing and that’s just a rabbit hole, so I just left it at cleaning up the HE-400’s sibilance.

 

The thing is though going by the response charts the HiFiMans are actually more accurate at 1000hz and below. What you might think of as "clean bass (hits)" is more like how dynamic headphones have a boosted response in the 80hz to 120hz region, essentially boosting the bass drum's upper registers, while by contrast the HiFiMans aren't going to hit with a very loud "thud" but tonally it's much more accurate as they're flatter all the way down well below the lower registers of the bass drum. It might not be as loud, but the tone is deeper, and more accurate.

 

For reference, here are two headphones representative of newer planars, one dynamic very known for those "clean bass (hits)" and another that's popularly perceived to be generally neutral. Notice how much flatter the HiFiMans are below 1000hz, where the dynamics basically start rising lower in the midrange and then start dropping off sooner down the bass.

If by "mixing" you mean you tried using the EQ, you can make the HE400's bass and lower midrange less accurate by boosting at the 80hz to 120hz range, although honestly it's more a matter of how you just got used to dynamics having a peak there and then dropping off, making the upper register of the bass drum even more audible than necessary. While in a sense it might seem like it sounds a lot like a speaker, there's still a problem there - dynamic driver speakers share a similar response with dynamic driver headphones, ie a tendency to have some boost at the upper bass/lower midrange, and then unless you're talking about a huge flagship speaker with multiple 8in or 10in bass drivers like the Focal Grande Utopia or the Sonus Faber Stradivari, they'll also start trailing off sooner. This is most evident for example in Focal's Chorus 600 and 700 and BMW's 600 and 700 standmounts (coincidence?). On top of all that, regardless of speaker size including the use of subwoofers, the loud bass and sensation of the bass thump on the chest has a tendency to have us judge headphone upper bass response as inadequate if the reference is a speaker, since a relatively lower bass output level (at the ears) coming from speakers will as long as it is loud enough can have that chest-thump sensation, while a headphone even at ear-damaging levels will never have such an effect due to sheer physics, ie the drivers are by the ears.

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rydell /img/forum/go_quote.gif

I'll definitely look into some external Xonar sound cards. Have you heard anything about the Dragonfly DAC? 

 

https://www.amazon.com/AudioQuest-DragonFly-Black-USB-Converter/dp/B01DP5JHHI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1466538021&sr=8-1&keywords=dragonfly+usb

 

Reviews are good but when it comes to anything with a low enough sensitivity (or high enough impedance but not ridiculously high sensitivity, ie anything unlike the Beyer T90), I'd still much rather go with anything powered by a wall socket or a large enough battery. Not that it isn't a great circuit or that all others are automatically better given wall power (or batteries), but basically you can find something wall-powered with a lot less compromises better suited for a lower sensitivity headphone. If it was just Grados the Dragonfly would even be overkill given their high sensitivity while all are 32ohms, but that isn't the case with those planars.

 

[Rydell]

 

 

The thing is though going by the response charts the HiFiMans are actually more accurate at 1000hz and below. What you might think of as "clean bass (hits)" is more like how dynamic headphones have a boosted response in the 80hz to 120hz region, essentially boosting the bass drum's upper registers, while by contrast the HiFiMans aren't going to hit with a very loud "thud" but tonally it's much more accurate as they're flatter all the way down well below the lower registers of the bass drum. It might not be as loud, but the tone is deeper, and more accurate.

 

For reference, here are two headphones representative of newer planars, one dynamic very known for those "clean bass (hits)" and another that's popularly perceived to be generally neutral. Notice how much flatter the HiFiMans are below 1000hz, where the dynamics basically start rising lower in the midrange and then start dropping off sooner down the bass.

If by "mixing" you mean you tried using the EQ, you can make the HE400's bass and lower midrange less accurate by boosting at the 80hz to 120hz range, although honestly it's more a matter of how you just got used to dynamics having a peak there and then dropping off, making the upper register of the bass drum even more audible than necessary. While in a sense it might seem like it sounds a lot like a speaker, there's still a problem there - dynamic driver speakers share a similar response with dynamic driver headphones, ie a tendency to have some boost at the upper bass/lower midrange, and then unless you're talking about a huge flagship speaker with multiple 8in or 10in bass drivers like the Focal Grande Utopia or the Sonus Faber Stradivari, they'll also start trailing off sooner. This is most evident for example in Focal's Chorus 600 and 700 and BMW's 600 and 700 standmounts (coincidence?). On top of all that, regardless of speaker size including the use of subwoofers, the loud bass and sensation of the bass thump on the chest has a tendency to have us judge headphone upper bass response as inadequate if the reference is a speaker, since a relatively lower bass output level (at the ears) coming from speakers will as long as it is loud enough can have that chest-thump sensation, while a headphone even at ear-damaging levels will never have such an effect due to sheer physics, ie the drivers are by the ears.

 

 

 

 

Reviews are good but when it comes to anything with a low enough sensitivity (or high enough impedance but not ridiculously high sensitivity, ie anything unlike the Beyer T90), I'd still much rather go with anything powered by a wall socket or a large enough battery. Not that it isn't a great circuit or that all others are automatically better given wall power (or batteries), but basically you can find something wall-powered with a lot less compromises better suited for a lower sensitivity headphone. If it was just Grados the Dragonfly would even be overkill given their high sensitivity while all are 32ohms, but that isn't the case with those planars.

 
Great response. And thank you. Yeah that sonic attack felt in the chest cavity from an "audiophiles" mid bass driver is what I wish I could replicate on headphones(no not with the "Subpac"). I know that can't be done with headphones but if it attacks enough without damaging ears, I could settle with a clean and accurate attempt at emulating it. Wish I had the same experience with headphones as I did with a friends 10,000 home audio setup, then I would know what to chase. This is all great info. I think I could settle with something a little more basic and just admit I won't be hearing what I want with the budget I have. Maybe I'll dish out that sort of cash for a speaker setup when I don't have people that would bang on my walls.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rydell /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

Great response. And thank you. Yeah that sonic attack felt in the chest cavity from an "audiophiles" mid bass driver is what I wish I could replicate on headphones(no not with the "Subpac"). I know that can't be done with headphones but if it attacks enough without damaging ears, I could settle with a clean and accurate attempt at emulating it. Wish I had the same experience with headphones as I did with a friends 10,000 home audio setup, then I would know what to chase. This is all great info. I think I could settle with something a little more basic and just admit I won't be hearing what I want with the budget I have. Maybe I'll dish out that sort of cash for a speaker setup when I don't have people that would bang on my walls.

 

Grado RS-1. Or better yet, get a Headphiles Vixen - a Beyer with custom wood cups housing an SR325 and up driver - with  RS1 or GS1000 drivers. Absolutely not cheap, but you should start saving up now. On the upside, the e-series have even higher sensitivity than the previous versions, so if instead of buying more active electronics now, the Grado drivers won't require that much more power as long as there is good enough current delivery.

 

That said, I'm not sure how the C5 is with the HE400 exactly, but while it was good with the HD600 as far as portables are concerned, the resulting sound just doesn't have the same "oomph" as when I drive the HD600 (at louder levels) with a Meier Cantate.2/Headfive/Symphony, Schiit Valhalla, Cayin CS55-A, etc.

 

[Rydell]

 

 

Grado RS-1. Or better yet, get a Headphiles Vixen - a Beyer with custom wood cups housing an SR325 and up driver - with  RS1 or GS1000 drivers. Absolutely not cheap, but you should start saving up now. On the upside, the e-series have even higher sensitivity than the previous versions, so if instead of buying more active electronics now, the Grado drivers won't require that much more power as long as there is good enough current delivery.

 

That said, I'm not sure how the C5 is with the HE400 exactly, but while it was good with the HD600 as far as portables are concerned, the resulting sound just doesn't have the same "oomph" as when I drive the HD600 (at louder levels) with a Meier Cantate.2/Headfive/Symphony, Schiit Valhalla, Cayin CS55-A, etc.

 
Very interesting. Just read a few articles on these. Aye, not cheap. But worth it if I get the sound I'm after. A listening sample of the RS-1's may justify an initial cost. I set up an ebay notification for any used ones floating around in my price range in the meantime. 

 

[cel4145]

I would recommend getting a Modi 2, and then returning it if you don't like it:

https://www.amazon.com/Modi-USB-Digital-Analog-Converter/dp/B00SCCSJVA/

My experience with the HE-400 is that they do scale with better SQ because of the excellent transient response. So since you feel like you know your desktop's output is not as good as your Macbook, seems worth giving it a shot. The Modi 2 should be even better as a DAC than your Macbook.

Worth the return shipping to Amazon as a demo fee if you find it doesn't help. Then you know it's the games that aren't producing the SQ you were hoping for.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

   
Very interesting. Just read a few articles on these. Aye, not cheap. But worth it if I get the sound I'm after. A listening sample of the RS-1's may justify an initial cost. I set up an ebay notification for any used ones floating around in my price range in the meantime. 

 
The alternative of course is that you track down used Beyers, then rent a 3D scanner, scan the Beyers including the driver mounts as well as the Grado's, design them so you can mount the Grados into open-back earcups, then go back and 3D print the new earcups. Not as stunning as the wood cups, but definitely cheaper.

 

[PurpleAngel]

  I have a huge pinch for the best headphone audio possible when gaming. I don't do mic stuff at all. But I'm underwhelmed when gaming. Music alone sounds better on my Macbook Pro, which from what I understand is because of its better built in DAC. I've also read about problems with my Desktop Computers sound chip(Realtek ALC887 DAP). I play a lot of games with explosions, shooting, etc. But besides the point. If music sounds significantly better on my Macbook Pro when I bought this audio setup for gaming on my Desktop, then I'm missing something that could be making my desktop audio much better. The headphones are equalized to balance out the sibilance these headphones are known to have, it's otherwise flat. My budget is $200 maybe 300.
Prepare for wall of questions:
Should I just do a USB DAC and bypass my sound chipset all together? I say USB DAC because there isn't anymore room inside my case, so it will have to be external.
Should I get an external sound card and DAC?
Should I toss out my amp and get a full combo setup and just replace it with something else?(don't need portable)
Is there a DAC that synergizes with the HE-400 / Cayin C5? Do I even have to worry about that?
Any other tips or suggestions you folks can make to aid in my search? Thank you!

 
Get a used Schiit Modi DAC.
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Schiit-Modi-1-DAC-/172253673904?hash=item281b1e79b0:g:KHoAAOSwNuxXbtlQ
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Schiit-Modi-2-Uber-DAC-/272291457226?hash=item3f65d5e8ca:g:-hYAAOSwZ1BXdLk7
 
Or for a little more cash, get a combo.
 
Here is a used (optical) Modi/Magni setup for $130.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/812691/schiit-magni-modi-optical-stack
 
Here is a (USB) Modi/Magni combo up for bid, ($105)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Schiit-Audio-Magni-and-Modi-Original-Stack-/282082819109?hash=item41ad723c25:g:wK8AAOSwhOVXcuYX

 

[Rydell]

I would recommend getting a Modi 2, and then returning it if you don't like it:

https://www.amazon.com/Modi-USB-Digital-Analog-Converter/dp/B00SCCSJVA/

My experience with the HE-400 is that they do scale with better SQ because of the excellent transient response. So since you feel like you know your desktop's output is not as good as your Macbook, seems worth giving it a shot. The Modi 2 should be even better as a DAC than your Macbook.

Worth the return shipping to Amazon as a demo fee if you find it doesn't help. Then you know it's the games that aren't producing the SQ you were hoping for.

Well slight problem. I just received the Modi 2 and its only output is left and right audio channels. Probably my fault for not verifying. Guess I'll be shipping that right on back.
 
Maybe they make them with the standard 3.5mm headphone jack.

 

[Rydell]

   
The alternative of course is that you track down used Beyers, then rent a 3D scanner, scan the Beyers including the driver mounts as well as the Grado's, design them so you can mount the Grados into open-back earcups, then go back and 3D print the new earcups. Not as stunning as the wood cups, but definitely cheaper.

Might consider this. I'm typically a DIY'er and all for saving cash. Is that basically all it is? No need to really show off the cups...

 

[cel4145]

Well slight problem. I just received the Modi 2 and its only output is left and right audio channels. Probably my fault for not verifying. Guess I'll be shipping that right on back.

Maybe they make them with the standard 3.5mm headphone jack.

Not sure what you mean. Headphones only take left and right audio channels as input.

 

[Rydell]

Not sure what you mean. Headphones only take left and right audio channels as input.

Apologies, *Dual RCA. 
 
On second thought, found this - https://www.amazon.com/Wv-l35rcackite-05-Stereo-Adapter-Iphone-Smartphone/dp/B013JML2IE/ref=sr_1_10?dd=2pQkiiY5ilC4D1n5BsWv2g%2C%2C&ddc_refnmnt=pfod&ie=UTF8&qid=1467746666&sr=8-10&keywords=dual+rca+to+3.5mm+adapter&refinements=p_72%3A2661618011%2Cp_97%3A11292772011
 
Anyone happen to know of any audio quality related issues when using these?

 

[cel4145]

DACs don't have two left and right channel outputs, so another DAC wouldn't have been different.

What are you trying to accomplish?