[I<3SQ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif Not sure how high end could be a car audio setup, particularly considering the limitation of acoustics due to the space and shape, but I have tried a few monitors and not precisely the high end ones, and all of them have sounded better than any car I have been in, also they can be really fun and enjoyable, my brother still has a pair of Alesis monitor ones, and I love them...

Ever been to an IASCA sponsored SQ competition? Hit one up and you'll see how lovely car audio can sound.

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by I<3SQ /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ever been to an IASCA sponsored SQ competition? Hit one up and you'll see how lovely car audio can sound.

Regardless of what they say, can claim, or invest, aside of those stupid bommer subwoofers, that clim ot give you insane levels of SPL, the space and shape of the interior of any car, is not apropriate for any audio system at all, they can sound good, of course I enjoy even my stock audio as well, but you can not compare it with any hi end audio setup, and not even with one not so hi-end...on top, what is the use, how many hours you will stay in your car listening music...maximum one two hours commuting...

 

[I<3SQ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif Regardless of what they say, can claim, or invest, aside of those stupid bommer subwoofers, that clim ot give you insane levels of SPL, the space and shape of the interior of any car, is not apropriate for any audio system at all, they can sound good, of course I enjoy even my stock audio as well, but you can not compare it with any hi end audio setup, and not even with one not so hi-end...on top, what is the use, how many hours you will stay in your car listening music...maximum one two hours commuting...

I knew I should have made a disclaimer when I responded.........

Notice how I said high end CAR AUDIO? Let's keep the discussion fair and compare apples to apples. I never suggested a vehicle is the ideal platform for a sound system, but does that mean one can't have a high end system that sounds killer, in one? Of course not!

I was talking about SQ, you're talking about SPL.

I was talking about high end car audio, you go and compare high end car audio to high end home audio, there is no comparison!!!

We're all entitled to our opinion, and I'm not gonna argue with you about yours, but you're not exactly comparing apples to apples here.

I spend alot of time in my car, none of which is spent commuting to/from work since I live a short 10 minute walk from my job. Ever hear of a road trip? Ever hear of a scenic drive? Ever hear of just taking a drive and listening to music to relax and get away from whatever it is you're trying to get away from? For me, even if I only spent 20 minutes a week in my car listening to music, that doesn't change the fact that I want my music to sound as good as I can possibly afford to have it sound when I listen to it.

Now can we get back on topic?

 

[b0dhi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif Regardless of what they say, can claim, or invest, aside of those stupid bommer subwoofers, that clim ot give you insane levels of SPL, the space and shape of the interior of any car, is not apropriate for any audio system at all, they can sound good, of course I enjoy even my stock audio as well, but you can not compare it with any hi end audio setup, and not even with one not so hi-end...on top, what is the use, how many hours you will stay in your car listening music...maximum one two hours commuting...

So a tiny interior like a headphone is good enough for "high end" sound, and a large interior like a room is good enough, but something in between - like a car - isn't? Please enlighten me with your logic.

 

[[L]es]

just wondering, what IS high-end car audio ? can you give some brands that you've used in your car ?

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0dhi /img/forum/go_quote.gif So a tiny interior like a headphone is good enough for "high end" sound, and a large interior like a room is good enough, but something in between - like a car - isn't? Please enlighten me with your logic.

I suggest you to go and read a little more about the topic, if you want a clear answer...

...What I have read, is that the shape of the interior of the car is the main problem, also the size, it is a restricted area, full of reflexions and resonances due to 100 of different materials used, the places where you can place the drivers are not ideal neither, as you have other stuff in there that you can not move, and you have to use what is left, to satisfy the demands of a full size speakers...I'm not here to enlighten you with my logic, that BTW is not my logic, is the only logic behind the issue, and was not stated by me, I'm not that smart...

Just an article about it, of the hundreds you can find, in this one they use a Corvette C5 as a base car:

[size=xx-small]"...Off Axis Response: 99% of the time in the car environment, you are sitting off axis (unless you drive sitting in the center of the front seat!), usually 300 - 450. This is something to consider. Off axis really affects material over 3 kHz, a range that humans are particularly sensitive to. We will measure and listen to all car audio speakers both on and off axis. The high end manufacturers take this off axis into consideration when designing their equipment.

Small Room Effect: The vehicle is in essence a very small room. Because of this, the nodes and room gain (lets call it car gain) are much higher in the frequency band than at home. This also means that the car gain is very different depending on vehicles. A Lincoln Navigator has a much different gain than a Honda Civic.

Bass Response: There are many factors to clean bass in the car. In the home, room resonance is typically very low, whereas it's much higher in a car. Due to the the air volume restrictions of a car, that air volume plays a heavier roll in response and loading. Remember that when in the car, you are actually sitting inside a speaker enclosure.

Imaging: This may be the hardest thing in Car audio. Where do you sit in relation to the front stage when listening to music? How about 5.1? The answer is equidistant from the speakers. This is where technology comes to play.

Road Noise: No matter what make, or how expensive the model, you always have to consider road noise. The C5 exhibits 93 dB at 65mph (87 dB at idle), with the top up and the windows up. There are ways to combat road noise, and we will definitely have to address it..."[/size]

Now, the same way in home and in headphone setups, is you will have the same restrictions, you will have the same horrible result...we all know that the real state and position of the speakers, for hi-end audio is crucial, and in headphones one of the reasons of the small chamber and the design of the interior and cups, the way they do, is to eliminate this problem, also the volume and SPL are completely different...

Anyway if you want to find more info, and enlighten yourself, just doing a Goggle will offer you tons of articles on why not to spend a fortune in a car audio system, and you will not get optimal results regardless...now if you want to add mine, the main reason for me is to be practical, the time I spend on my car, I could easily be with no music at all...

 

[I<3SQ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by [L]es /img/forum/go_quote.gif just wondering, what IS high-end car audio ? can you give some brands that you've used in your car ?

McIntosh, Nakimichi, Pioneer Premier, Audison, CDT Audio, Focal, Phoenix Gold, Xtant, Soundstream, Zapco, Diamond Audio, Boston Acoustics, Infinity, ARC Audio, Eclipse, Orion, PPI, and Image Dynamics, to name a few.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif I suggest you to go and read a little more about the topic, if you want a clear answer... ...What I have read, is that the shape of the interior of the car is the main problem, also the size, it is a restricted area, full of reflexions and resonances due to 100 of different materials used, the places where you can place the drivers are not ideal neither, as you have other stuff in there that you can not move, and you have to use what is left, to satisfy the demands of a full size speakers doing a Goggle will offer you tons of articles on why not to spend a fortune in a car audio system, and you will not get optimal results regardless...now if you want to add mine, the main reason for me is to be practical, the time I spend on my car, I could easily be with no music at all...

Ah, so you've just read about the shortcomings, well that explains alot.

Quote:

Off Axis Response: 99% of the time in the car environment, you are sitting off axis (unless you drive sitting in the center of the front seat!), usually 300 - 450.

This would be true if you mounted the speakers in the factory locations. One of the most popular ways to address this issue is by the use of kick pods. Another way to deal with it is a custom install in the door panel. Don't fool yourself by thinking it's an obstacle that can't be overcome, it just matters how much money you want to spend.

Quote:

Small Room Effect: The vehicle is in essence a very small room. Because of this, the nodes and room gain (lets call it car gain) are much higher in the frequency band than at home.

aka transfer function. This is an unavoidable problem in car and home, it all comes down to you doing your homework and trying different speakers to find the one that gives you the freq response you're looking for. There are ways to calculate for transfer function as well, but again, it all depends on how much money you want to spend.
Quote:

Bass Response: There are many factors to clean bass in the car. In the home, room resonance is typically very low, whereas it's much higher in a car. Due to the the air volume restrictions of a car, that air volume plays a heavier roll in response and loading.

It's just a fact of life, but not a problem at all when the right products and setup are used.

Quote:

Imaging: This may be the hardest thing in Car audio. Where do you sit in relation to the front stage when listening to music? How about 5.1? The answer is equidistant from the speakers. This is where technology comes to play.

With the help of a skilled installer, along with selection of the proper products, it's amazing the imaging that can be had in a vehicle. The deck I currently have in my car, for example, has a microphone that I attach to it's front panel and then place it on my headrest. I then activate the auto time alignment feature of the deck and it calibrates itself to ensure that the sound from each of the speakers is reaching the mic at the same time. The end result is that even though i'm sitting in the driver seat, far away from the speakers on the passenger side, it sounds as if i'm sitting directly in the middle of the soundstage.

Quote:

Road Noise: No matter what make, or how expensive the model, you always have to consider road noise.

While it can't be completely taken away, it can be dramatically reduced to the point to where it's hardly noticeable.

Seeing as how you've never experienced a true SQ setup in a vehicle, it's clear to see how/why you feel the way you do but it's also quite ignorant for you form an opinion on something in which you have not experienced for yourself. In car audio, 99% of the end result is due to the installation. You can go buy all the top brand, the best of the best but if it's not installed right and tuned properly then it won't sound any better than anything else on the road.

Go listen to some high end SQ vehicles and then form an opinion.

 

[bigshot]

Studio monitors... in a car? What the heck is that?! Good luck getting anywhere near studio quality sound in a vinyl padded coffin. Car audio is a totally different animal from home audio. Any company that advertises "studio monitors" for cars is engaging in some pretty fast and loose use of words.

See ya
Steve

 

[I<3SQ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif Studio monitors... in a car? What the heck is that?! Good luck getting anywhere near studio quality sound in a vinyl padded coffin. Car audio is a totally different animal from home audio. Any company that advertises "studio monitors" for cars is engaging in some pretty fast and loose use of words. See ya Steve

Who said anything about studio monitors in a car?

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by I<3SQ /img/forum/go_quote.gif Go listen to some high end SQ vehicles and then form an opinion.

First of all let me tell you that you have no idea of what kind of experience I have in audio, and if I have heard or not good or bad audio car setups...from that list of hi-end audio you posted, there are a few brands that right now are simply a joke, and no longer considered as hi-end by many, it seems that there is much more info written of what what you think...

...
Second when I stated: "what I have read" and posted that little article, was just, as that is the only input I could offer him, nobody will approve a third party experience, unless written is some kind of specialized publication, like that one...

I could answer one by one all those topics, as none of your answers dismiss any of them, but will post a more general answer, as there is no use if you are satisfied with the sound you get, and also that is not the topic of this thread at all...

Now to your setup, first the speakers unless you want to place them in the windshielf, and get tickets everyday, you have no other choice of placed them on the factory locations or around that, doors maybe, and that's it, no ther way unless in an school bus, on the back is even worst, and you know why, and if you do not know why, there is no way you should be arguing about car audio then...

...
When you use those devices to time align the setup, you are creating bigger problems, as phase shifts, distortions, waves overlapping in the wrong time, etc...also you try to fix it for you, and mess it for the rest of the passengers, fair enough!!!...

... You are also introducing a lot more parts in the signal path, and that is a real problem if you ask me, in opther words, all what you are doing in your car setup, is intorducing more anomalies, and degrading the sound more and more, trying to fix a natural problem rather than to accept it, and live with it, as it is not fixable, you are going around the problem creating others, and creating and intorducing artifacts, that will considerably degrade more and more the sound at the end, that fixing the real probems they were created for....

 

[I<3SQ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif from that list of hi-end audio you posted, there are a few brands that right now are simply a joke, and no longer considered as hi-end by many

First of all, I was asked what brands I've used in my car that would be considered high end, so I answered. Keep in mind that I didn't just get into high end car audio yesterday, i've been at it for 15years so my list reflects that. The Phoenix Gold of the early 90's is head a shoulders above and beyond that of today, for example.

 

[TheAnomaly]

monitors or just small powered speakers generally are an excellent choice for a computer sound setup. if you look through my post history you see that i have been going through a "monitor odyssey" for over 6 months now, beginning with the Audioengine A5 and culminating in the Dynaudios i have now. the A5s are not a studio monitor whereas the Dynaudios are, and where the A5s were good the Dynaudios are excellent, i will say that much. to base your opinion of studio monitors off one product line (and admittedly, one of the lesser regarded lines...i've had guitar center employees tell me that the Rokits are lacking, let alone what i've heard myself) seems rash.

 

[Dopefish]

I agree, just for sheer convenience, active monitors should be the first consideration for a small room computer setup like that. And yes, there are lots of musical monitors perfect for that application.

I haven't heard the Dynaudios but I was pretty impressed by the NHT M-00s and a few active Wharfedale monitors. Not a big fan of the M-Audio monitors though, which were priced higher at the time.

 

[ninjapixie]

I've had 2 friends develop tinnitus from blasting their car stereos to insane levels (one's stereo was worth more then the car). The volume one would have to play at to overcome the ambient noise of the road and engine is simply too loud to enjoy for an extended time period no matter how good the sound is (if you consider it good).

As for studio monitors as computer speakers, I say go for the best you can afford. For nearfield listening you're not going to do any better then studio monitors.

 

[b0dhi]

Studio monitors tend to lack deep bass below about 30hz (even on my Dynaudio BM5A) unless you buy the subwoofer(s) too. However they do sound fantastic hooked up to a good soundcard IMO. Unlike 'flat' headphones, flat monitors actually are very enjoyable.