Confused by the cost of CD Transports

[]eep]

I have a Cambridge Audio Azur 340c. I bought it used. But I am thoroughly unimpressed. I hoped it would work but not for burned CD's. I know it's the cheaper one. And I payed like €10 (when I was checking incoming gear for a goodwill store).

I won't keep rambling on about how disappointed I am by cd-players. All cd-players I owned. Only a Myriad CD100, at least that pleased me for a while... At a price.

I know that CD was a victory for marketing. People still recite the mantras. Coming from cheap turntables and pick-ups it was quite the counterpoint. But later reality had it's revenge, when it proved the technical stuff was a lot more complicated and prone to very different problems and malfunctions.

For optimal sound quality and longevity I still rather play an LP. Even the modern ones that are *ooh* digitally recorded and mastered. Not all. And remember the 'loudness war'? That happened when CD was reigning champ. A medium is as good as its mastering of the recording. Digital isn't bad per se, but neither is CD perfect. If you still believe the hype from the eighties, go buy an expensive cd-transport. See how long it lasts. YMMV

 

[chesebert]

You need a way better CDP to match/beat LP.

 

[Conan1974]

The disc mechanism in my Audia Flight CD Three S ($5.8k) failed twice in 3 years. While it was waiting to fail, it refused to read maybe a dozen CD's, would lock itself up and regularly stop playing when it felt like it.
Can still be used as a DAC and sounds very nice doing it.
It has a Stream Unlimited mechanism.

They don't make them like they used to but the CXC seems somewhat promising. Cheap enough to buy new with a warranty for peace of mind.

I did compared it to 2 high level cd players.
Gato Audio CDD1 and Primare CD35.
Couldn't hear any difference, even the owner of the Primare, after few minutes was not able to say anything in favour of the 6 times the price player.
I was lucky that I did not sold the CXC, while having the Gato as mine daily player.

 

[2leftears]

I have a Cambridge Audio Azur 340c. I bought it used. But I am thoroughly unimpressed. I hoped it would work but not for burned CD's. I know it's the cheaper one. And I payed like €10 (when I was checking incoming gear for a goodwill store).

Buying a vintage CD player is hit-and-miss as far as its ability to read burned CDs.

It is simply down to the difference in technology. CD-DA (regular music CDs) have a good transition in reflected laser intensity as the laser hits the pit/land transitions.

On CD-R (and even worse for CD-RW), using a dye layer to record the EFM data signal, the transition in reflected laser intensity is not as good.

Thus, CD-R has a lower modulation depth than CD-DA, and CD-RW is lower still. Vintage CD mechanisms were not designed to cope with the lower modulation depth of CD-R & CD-RW. Whilst a reasonable number of vintage players can borderline read CD-R, most cannot read CD-RW.

If you still believe the hype from the eighties, go buy an expensive cd-transport. See how long it lasts. YMMV

I have two Marantz CD-80 CD players (1989), bought both around 2010 for about $120 each. They needed a full recap (did that some 10 years ago), but both play every CD I own without any issues, and even CD-R they play just fine. They contain the Philips CDM1 MkII: virtually indestructible drive mechanisms, as long as you replace the electrolytic caps in the servo circuit once in a while when the caps have gone high ESR (causes skipping). As old as the vintage classic TDA1541 D/A chip & SAA7220 filter combo may be, in the CD-80 it was a good implementation then and it still sounds great.

I have the Marantz CD-80 and the Marantz SA-11S3 to compare here at home. A HiFi level player from 1989 vs. a High-End player from 2012. On occasion the SA-11S3 sounds a little more refined perhaps, but I can't tell them apart on most days (not after the full recap of the CD-80 that is).

 

[]eep]

Buying a vintage CD player is hit-and-miss as far as its ability to read burned CDs.

It is simply down to the difference in technology. CD-DA (regular music CDs) have a good transition in reflected laser intensity as the laser hits the pit/land transitions.

On CD-R (and even worse for CD-RW), using a dye layer to record the EFM data signal, the transition in reflected laser intensity is not as good.

Thus, CD-R has a lower modulation depth than CD-DA, and CD-RW is lower still. Vintage CD mechanisms were not designed to cope with the lower modulation depth of CD-R & CD-RW. Whilst a reasonable number of vintage players can borderline read CD-R, most cannot read CD-RW.


I have two Marantz CD-80 CD players (1989), bought both around 2010 for about $120 each. They needed a full recap (did that some 10 years ago), but both play every CD I own without any issues, and even CD-R they play just fine. They contain the Philips CDM1 MkII: virtually indestructible drive mechanisms, as long as you replace the electrolytic caps in the servo circuit once in a while when the caps have gone high ESR (causes skipping). As old as the vintage classic TDA1541 D/A chip & SAA7220 filter combo may be, in the CD-80 it was a good implementation then and it still sounds great.

I have the Marantz CD-80 and the Marantz SA-11S3 to compare here at home. A HiFi level player from 1989 vs. a High-End player from 2012. On occasion the SA-11S3 sounds a little more refined perhaps, but I can't tell them apart on most days (not after the full recap of the CD-80 that is).

Then you're lucky. I had quite a few going through my hands, and they were all crap. But those were from my local town going to goodwill. It would be very surprising to find one of those unicorn high end cd-players.
And still, it doesn't seem your Marantz CD-80 came untarnished. You would need quite a bit of expertise to do a complete recap. My respect for that.

However, my reservation comes with the next part. As I've done a lot of mods on those vintage Philips chip R2R DACs, the problem is in that saa7220 digital filter. Where the 1541 has quite a reputation, I found it needs to play in NOS and with a really good filter to sound good. I still have about 4 of those (their little brother) in DACs that I modified. And a Philips CD-Player with the same chip, chipset.
I expected that CD-Player to sound like my modified DACs. But what an absolute letdown. That digital filter totally destroyed it.

And even so, I played over 10 years with those DACs and sounded better than anything else I could put my ear (iEar) to, it even played 96kHz high res, which made it stand out even more over regular cd-players. Yet, it has met it's master. I bought a Denafrips Ares II which was better on most things. Now I have a Laiv Harmony which is leagues ahead. I recently compared them, with the added benefit of a proper clock signal from a DDC. My old Philips dac sounded better than ever, but still, the difference was quite clear. Especially soundstage width and air. It was time to say goodbye to Philips 1980-ies tech. Modern DACs have almost become mature.
I don't even want to know how it sounds with that digital filter feeding the dac-chip.
A simple $20 usb optical drive has no problems reading any disc at 50x speed.

I think, for the effort, price and sound quality, anyone can buy the SMSL PL200t with better performance from a new laser that does not have problems with cd-rw, vibrations and a jittery clock.

Nostalgia is a nice sentiment (although it can be a mental health problem) but technology has not been standing still.

 

[2leftears]

Then you're lucky. I had quite a few going through my hands, and they were all crap. But those were from my local town going to goodwill. It would be very surprising to find one of those unicorn high end cd-players.
And still, it doesn't seem your Marantz CD-80 came untarnished. You would need quite a bit of expertise to do a complete recap. My respect for that.

For sure, 40 year old CD players are not a good choice if they have never had any maintenance/service done, and if you are not able to do so yourself.

Fortunately I knew what I was getting into; it is not that the Marantz CD-80 didn't come untarnished (it was in mint condition and with no prior mods, all factory-original), but 30 year old electrolytics are simply past their best, and some past their useful lifespan, especially the ones baking next to heatsinks. Fortunately I also know how to recap audio equipment and I know how to service the Philips CDM mechanisms & servo electronics, so for me $20 was a nice way to get my hands on a well-implemented TDA1541/SAA7220 combo.

But the point is that these players are (relatively) easy to service and re-condition after 40 years, and will probably remain so for the next 40 years. Robust simple mechanics in the CDM, and through-soldered components for the most part using Sn-Pb solder, no BGA failures to look forward to. Buy a modern mid-range player now and I am not sure the same can be said about those in 40 years time...

However, my reservation comes with the next part. As I've done a lot of mods on those vintage Philips chip R2R DACs, the problem is in that saa7220 digital filter. Where the 1541 has quite a reputation, I found it needs to play in NOS and with a really good filter to sound good. I still have about 4 of those (their little brother) in DACs that I modified. And a Philips CD-Player with the same chip, chipset.
I expected that CD-Player to sound like my modified DACs. But what an absolute letdown. That digital filter totally destroyed it.

This is where we may have to agree to disagree; I am not a fan of the NOS DAC mods.

Since this is a thread about CD transports, those old players can still serve as decent transports for a stand-alone DAC. The SAA7220 is a noisy chip though, so for those who find that objectionable it may not be a good option.

But you know, everyone should just do what works best for them. Keeping a couple of vintage near-indestructible (and to me nice sounding) CD players works for me

 

[sygnus21]

The disc mechanism in my Audia Flight CD Three S ($5.8k) failed twice in 3 years. While it was waiting to fail, it refused to read maybe a dozen CD's, would lock itself up and regularly stop playing when it felt like it.
Can still be used as a DAC and sounds very nice doing it.
It has a Stream Unlimited mechanism.

They don't make them like they used to but the CXC seems somewhat promising. Cheap enough to buy new with a warranty for peace of mind.

Nice player. Sad the hear such an expensive piece of gear like that has has 2 issues in 3 years. Just goes to show anything can break no matter how quality or expensive the gear is. Anyway, I'm coming up on the purchase anniversary of my 701 VRDS and thus far all is still good.

Oddly though, I've found now two CDs - Donald Fagen Kamakiriad, and Bob James / Earl Klugh Cool, that for some reason are seen as a single disc - meaning when I try to skip to other tracks, the player locks up and reverts back to the first track (track 1). The weird thing though is if I don't try to skip tracks the CD will play (from track 1) to the end as normal, but if I try to skip a track, it reverts back to track one.

Both are early 90's (93 & 92); however I've played plenty of 90's CDs and thus far of all the CDs I've played through the player only those two has issues. Admittedly I've not gone through all 3000 of my CDs, so...

 

[2leftears]

Nice player. Sad the hear such an expensive piece of gear like that has has 2 issues in 3 years. Just goes to show anything can break no matter how quality or expensive the gear is. Anyway, I'm coming up on the purchase anniversary of my 701 VRDS and thus far all is still good.

Oddly though, I've found now two CDs - Donald Fagen Kamakiriad, and Bob James / Earl Klugh Cool, that for some reason are seen as a single disc - meaning when I try to skip to other tracks, the player locks up and reverts back to the first track (track 1). The weird thing though is if I don't try to skip tracks the CD will play (from track 1) to the end as normal, but if I try to skip a track, it reverts back to track one.

Both are early 90's (93 & 92); however I've played plenty of 90's CDs and thus far of all the CDs I've played through the player only those two has issues. Admittedly I've not gone through all 3000 of my CDs, so...

Could be an issue with the CD(s), or an issue with the player's chipset / microcontroller programming.

I have one CD that mutes the last half of a specific song on every Marantz CD-80 and CD-60 player I have tried. Both use the same Philips SAA7310 / SAA7220 / TDA1541 decoder / filter / DAC chipset and both use the Motorola MC68HC05C9P microcontroller, albeit likely with slightly different EEPROM programming.

Silly me, I bought a second copy of the same CD which had exactly the same problem on these players, but not other brand players.

No way of knowing whether the problem lies with the player's chipset or microcontroller programming, or whether there is a subcode error on the CD that these specific players interpret/handle differently compared to other players.

 

[sygnus21]

Could be an issue with the CD(s), or an issue with the player's chipset / microcontroller programming.

Who know. Only encountered two CDs with the issue thus far; typically I'll just play a CD from start to finish, but occasionally will just skip to a specific track. From here forward I'll be testing every CD I play to see if this is an issue or anomaly. Anyway, outside of that no other issues.

Silly me, I bought a second copy of the same CD which had exactly the same problem on these players, but not other brand players.

I did the same with the Donald Fagen CD thinking the CD was bad, but the replacement did the same

 

[Runrunsmithfly]

Just to bump and add to this thread, the 6000CDT I just got plays all of my CDs that couldn’t be played due to being destroyed by my kids. Enjoying music I thought was lost… priceless.

I bought a 6000CDT years ago and it has been a workhorse. I love it.

 

[chord1]

I bought a 6000CDT years ago and it has been a workhorse. I love it.

Great player.

 

[bagwell359]

Have a CXC I bought in 2016. Played thousands of CD's and works every time.

Very fond of the MXN-10 streamer too, trouble free, no issues ever. Certainly the best sounding of the under $1k units I've tried.

 

[George Hincapie]

I connected my AudioLab 6000CDT to May KTE last night. Sounded great. Is there any point from SQ buying a more expensive transport?

 

[Conan1974]

No.

 

[George Hincapie]

No.

Wish it had AES out though.