Confused by the cost of CD Transports

[prima186]

Definitely - Confused by the cost of CD Transports

Anyway, I much prefer listening to CDs through my Teac VRDS 701 CD Player as opposed to my CD rips in uncompressed FLAC files. This stack here is due to some AB comparisons between my Pontus 12th-1 and Pontus 15th....



And everyone of those CDs above are also ripped to my NAS for play in JRiver when I don't want to fiddle with CDs. NOT to mean I don't like hearing them.


My setup

>Anyway, I much prefer listening to CDs through my Teac VRDS 701 CD Player as opposed to my CD rips in uncompressed FLAC files. This stack here is due to some AB >comparisons between my Pontus 12th-1 and Pontus 15th....
I agree.

Teac VRDS 701 is good.
The “VRDS system” does appeal to me.
I am also in the process of comparing it to the “Esoteric CDP” as I want another CDT.

 

[Conan1974]

You have the Teac player and You want another transport? Why?

 

[]eep]

This is a forum to talk about CDT....

Streaming services are cobbled together and not reliable at all.
There is too much variation and I don't think they have reached a commercial level.
But I guess this is a subjective category of personal opinion.

Exactly. I was triggered by the comparison of a cdt to streaming. If you strictly want to talk about 'the cost of CDT' then don't make comparisons either. I just pointed out the comparison is apples and oranges.

And considering the cost, it's even more lopsided. Although as you can read I wasn't defending streaming, merely high-res vs Redbook. The only downside of streaming is that's its leasing music, not buying a copy to collect. Which is a good point for buying an expensive CDT so you can keep playing your precious collection.

And, as you throw another log on the fire. Streaming is cobbled together? What? Not reliable? What about CDs then? If there's one medium that in my experience has not lived up to its potential of sounding 'perfect' and indestructible and it's error correction guaranteeing perfect play every time... I've seen so many CDs where the reflective layer was so thin, holding it up to a light it looked like watching the milky way full of stars. Full of holes. Causing even that error correction to fail. Then there's burned CDs. They are very problematic for so many cd-players/ transports. And then there's (again) bad mastering of 95% of mainstream music albums.

So LPs were often pretty crappy, the 13 hit wonder compilations etc. But that's not the cause of the vinyl resurgence is it? It's the good ones. Same for cd's. With the difference being that remastering old material from tape masters mostly renders incredible results. Remastering old digital 44khz recordings usually does not. But even if it does, you do not need to use cd as a medium anymore.

So, a CDT has to be very well made to surmount all those problems an optical drive has. Production numbers are low, that means expensive. As were those first cd-players. Built like a tank but also very niche because the cost was inhibitive. In 1985 $1000 was a LOT of money. And a big risk because there were so few titles.

So, call it opinion, but I've had many cd players over the years, even very expensive ones, and I still have some old models that still work (tried to refurbish). They all broke down, stopped working after a few years or could, or can not play burned CDs or keep skipping. I've worked at a thrift shop for a while on the electronics that came in. I have not encountered one properly working cd player.

That's why they're expensive. Is that conclusion on topic enough for you?

PS:
No, I'm not bashing you or the topic. I'm just sharing my experiences and I'm trying to seperate reality and technical matters from nostalgia. Nostalgia can make vintage equipment very pricy.
PS2:
From a technical standpoint there is no reason to be able to play music on a CDT. There isn't a single 1 or 0 missing when you rip a CD. I use a $22 usb drive and it delivers a perfect rip in 5 minutes. It's like taking a buffer and store it permanently. Technically speaking, reading a music CD renders a stream of data, the same as 'streaming' only it's strictly limited to 44.1kHz 16bit where what ever 'streaming' service you prefer is unlimited and has a large buffer. Reading a CD-ROM is not reading a stream but a file, which is much more robust because it can use a handshake method. We discussed this earlier; there are CDTs that can use this handshake method but strictly speaking it is then a CD-ROM reader that simply doesn't send the buffer to storage.

Edit: had to check that price at introduction. It was fl 2000 (Dutch guilders) in 1982, exactly what I remembered. I devided that in half but the exchange rate then was a bit less than $0.50. So, $800 is more correct. Still, that was a lot of money then.

 

[prima186]

Exactly. I was triggered by the comparison of a cdt to streaming. If you strictly want to talk about 'the cost of CDT' then don't make comparisons either. I just pointed out the comparison is apples and oranges.

And considering the cost, it's even more lopsided. Although as you can read I wasn't defending streaming, merely high-res vs Redbook. The only downside of streaming is that's its leasing music, not buying a copy to collect. Which is a good point for buying an expensive CDT so you can keep playing your precious collection.

And, as you throw another log on the fire. Streaming is cobbled together? What? Not reliable? What about CDs then? If there's one medium that in my experience has not lived up to its potential of sounding 'perfect' and indestructible and it's error correction guaranteeing perfect play every time... I've seen so many CDs where the reflective layer was so thin, holding it up to a light it looked like watching the milky way full of stars. Full of holes. Causing even that error correction to fail. Then there's burned CDs. They are very problematic for so many cd-players/ transports. And then there's (again) bad mastering of 95% of mainstream music albums.

So LPs were often pretty crappy, the 13 hit wonder compilations etc. But that's not the cause of the vinyl resurgence is it? It's the good ones. Same for cd's. With the difference being that remastering old material from tape masters mostly renders incredible results. Remastering old digital 44khz recordings usually does not. But even if it does, you do not need to use cd as a medium anymore.

So, a CDT has to be very well made to surmount all those problems an optical drive has. Production numbers are low, that means expensive. As were those first cd-players. Built like a tank but also very niche because the cost was inhibitive. In 1985 $1000 was a LOT of money. And a big risk because there were so few titles.

So, call it opinion, but I've had many cd players over the years, even very expensive ones, and I still have some old models that still work (tried to refurbish). They all broke down, stopped working after a few years or could, or can not play burned CDs or keep skipping. I've worked at a thrift shop for a while on the electronics that came in. I have not encountered one properly working cd player.

That's why they're expensive. Is that conclusion on topic enough for you?

PS:
No, I'm not bashing you or the topic. I'm just sharing my experiences and I'm trying to seperate reality and technical matters from nostalgia. Nostalgia can make vintage equipment very pricy.
PS2:
From a technical standpoint there is no reason to be able to play music on a CDT. There isn't a single 1 or 0 missing when you rip a CD. I use a $22 usb drive and it delivers a perfect rip in 5 minutes. It's like taking a buffer and store it permanently. Technically speaking, reading a music CD renders a stream of data, the same as 'streaming' only it's strictly limited to 44.1kHz 16bit where what ever 'streaming' service you prefer is unlimited and has a large buffer. Reading a CD-ROM is not reading a stream but a file, which is much more robust because it can use a handshake method. We discussed this earlier; there are CDTs that can use this handshake method but strictly speaking it is then a CD-ROM reader that simply doesn't send the buffer to storage.

Edit: had to check that price at introduction. It was fl 2000 (Dutch guilders) in 1982, exactly what I remembered. I devided that in half but the exchange rate then was a bit less than $0.50. So, $800 is more correct. Still, that was a lot of money then.

There are many options for means of listening to music.
I have never found “streaming” appealing.
And at this stage you probably find “streaming” appealing.

I guess it doesn't matter either way.
My post about using CDT was written because this is a CDT forum.
I would not write it in a streaming forum (even if I thought it was).

Does my explanation make sense to you.

 

[sygnus21]

Edited, as I clearly read the post wrong. Sorry. Anyway, in reposting....

>Anyway, I much prefer listening to CDs through my Teac VRDS 701 CD Player as opposed to my CD rips in uncompressed FLAC files. This stack here is due to some AB >comparisons between my Pontus 12th-1 and Pontus 15th....
I agree.

Teac VRDS 701 is good.
The “VRDS system” does appeal to me.
I am also in the process of comparing it to the “Esoteric CDP” as I want another CDT.

The VRDS system is impressive and definitely works. I intentionally banged (hard, but not thunderous) on the table a few times during CD playback and the CD never skipped a beat. Contrast this to my Rotel RCD-1072 and a love tap would skip the CD.

The only thing I wish it did was support I2S. It doesn't so I've got it hooked up via a Lifatec glass strand optical cable. Great cable, with no coloration so what on the CD is what you get - good or bad, but that's also the CP player itself - it doesn't color, it simply plays what's there.

 

[]eep]

There are many options for means of listening to music.
I have never found “streaming” appealing.
And at this stage you probably find “streaming” appealing.

I guess it doesn't matter either way.
My post about using CDT was written because this is a CDT forum.
I would not write it in a streaming forum (even if I thought it was).

Does my explanation make sense to you.

I understand, and respect that. But does that exclude critical opinions or warnings?
If it really bothers you, you can skip posts.

Streaming
To satisfy your curiosity; I've held of on streaming for many years. In fact, I've only been using Qobuz for little over a year and I have hundreds of cd's since that was all there was for decades.
Bad:
I don't use streaming much and I get totally lost in all the new rubbish music that is published every month. It's just too much. And listening gets reduced to snippet after snippet of each song. I think this is very bad.
Good:
The good thing is: access! Almost everything you're curious about at your fingertips in your seat.

CDs
The good thing about cd's now: you can get them for $1 a piece at 2ndH stores. Generally in great condition, except for the brittle plastic box.
The bad:
Where are the B&M music stores? Everything is gone in my city. No more browsing music on cd or lp, meeting other music lovers, asking what's new great music (also a big problem these days).
The very bad:
CDs made totally loose my interest in audio and music listening. As in: sit in my chair and just listen to an entire album. This started early 90-ies and lasted almost 15 years.

FLAC
I then turned to pc and was an early adopter of pc music listening with headphones. The early days with a Gravis soundcard, later a Soundblaster and external USB. First crappy MP3 and then FLAC. Then connecting usb to my high end stereo. No more skipping cd's and failing expensive cd-players. That's also when I started with upgrading and modifying my cd-players dac and seperate DACs.
The very Good
This is when digital finally started sounding good and my love for music was rekindled. All my music on a portable hard drive, properly tagged and filed with high quality cover art. More and more high-res recordings started appearing taking quality a significant step higher, almost closing the gap to vinyl. Say what? Yes...

Vinyl
This is where my love of music started. Attentive listening to an artists expression for 45 minutes long. Music that pulls you in. Big album art with printed lyrics I actually read. Something to hold, smell, discover and collect.
The bad
Oh, no. I'm not going there. I'll summarize it for you: you need to take proper care of vinyl. That's it. If you don't you'll start getting scratches, dirt, dust and wear. If you do you can enjoy LPs for a lifetime.
The Excellent
I have records older than me that are like a time machine. My first records I bought are still pristine. After 40 years of upgrades the results care spectacular. The sense of presence of the singer in the room is just eery. Soundstage is wide, deep and has height. There's a presence of the room even in quiet passages. Dynamics can be scary intense (that's not the same as dynamic range).
The boom in cheap 2ndH LPs is over. They often weren't that well maintained anyway. Meaning they often have more noise than I care for. But new pressings are in 95% very good pressings with no noise at all. Modern recordings sound very good, even if recorded digital (not all obviously, many 48k homestudio of mediocre quality). The higher prices nowadays do result in more attention to pressing quality, artwork, and fancy colored vinyl that make it a little more fun but don't anything for sound quality.

Tough competition for a CD. Often heard from young people: "Why would I play cd's? My dad plays CDs". Dad's can afford an expensive CDT.

 

[TinearedOne]

Just to bump and add to this thread, the 6000CDT I just got plays all of my CDs that couldn’t be played due to being destroyed by my kids. Enjoying music I thought was lost… priceless.

 

[sygnus21]

Just to bump and add to this thread, the 6000CDT I just got plays all of my CDs that couldn’t be played due to being destroyed by my kids. Enjoying music I thought was lost… priceless.

I doubt the CDs were "destroyed" if the CDT is playing them. It's not like the 6000CDT has some magic sauce that suddenly fixes "destroyed" CDs.

 

[TinearedOne]

I doubt the CDs were "destroyed" if the CDT is playing them. It's not like the 6000CDT has some magic sauce that suddenly fixes "destroyed" CDs.

Destroyed is perhaps a bit strong, but they were scratched and pitted and incapable of being played by my old player and read properly by the drive I use to rip them to my PC properly - so, that, to me, is pretty much destroyed, coastered, or whatever else you want to call it. The 6000CDT can apparently read some fairly damaged CDs.

 

[sygnus21]

Destroyed is perhaps a bit strong, but they were scratched and pitted and incapable of being played by my old player and read properly by the drive I use to rip them to my PC properly - so, that, to me, is pretty much destroyed, coastered, or whatever else you want to call it. The 6000CDT can apparently read some fairly damaged CDs.

I don't think the 6000CDPT is so unique there.

Amway, hard to argue the point since we can't verify ourselves.... cause to me badly pitted and scratched CD isn't playing on anything. So I guess the definition of "destroyed, coastered, or whatever else you want to call it". Comes into play.

Anyway, good you have a CD player able to overcome scratched CDs

 

[]eep]

Thanks for the bump.

I wanted to post something about cd-players. The good thing about this revival of cd's is that it also creates demand for Cd-players. And now we can see the cost coming down and quality rising. The amount of proper silent transports with laser unit was running out. For instance Paul McGowan said in one of his talks PS Audio bought up all available sacd transports, about a 1000. But he, as any American, is quite myopic. (I remember him lol over Denafrips).

But the worlds largest industrial base has heard the call. And they make new transports and players. SMSL makes a really good transport that starts up really quickly and reads any cd really well. Even your own burned CDs. The SMSL PL200t is really not a toy. It's a serious contender without the premium price. Also, the top loading avoids a lot of potential problems with swallowed cd's or broken tray motors. Or even scratches (slot-in).
This review is quite how I feel about it.


Even portable cd-players like the ones from Moondrop and Fiio. (I also saw a lot from vintage brand names; long gone brandnames that have been bought up to fool new customers like Aiwa and Lenco).


And you can even get a proper working low priced Cd-player that isn't crap. Like the SMSL PL100.


Edit: and don't forget Shanling. They've always been strong on cd-players. And they also have an sacd player.

 

[TinearedOne]

Thanks for the bump.

I wanted to post something about cd-players. The good thing about this revival of cd's is that it also creates demand for Cd-players. And now we can see the cost coming down and quality rising. The amount of proper silent transports with laser unit was running out. For instance Paul McGowan said in one of his talks PS Audio bought up all available sacd transports, about a 1000. But he, as any American, is quite myopic. (I remember him lol over Denafrips).

But the worlds largest industrial base has heard the call. And they make new transports and players. SMSL makes a really good transport that starts up really quickly and reads any cd really well. Even your own burned CDs. The SMSL PL200t is really not a toy. It's a serious contender without the premium price. Also, the top loading avoids a lot of potential problems with swallowed cd's or broken tray motors. Or even scratches (slot-in).
This review is quite how I feel about it.


Even portable cd-players like the ones from Moondrop and Fiio. (I also saw a lot from vintage brand names; long gone brandnames that have been bought up to fool new customers like Aiwa and Lenco).


And you can even get a proper working low priced Cd-player that isn't crap. Like the SMSL PL100.


Edit: and don't forget Shanling. They've always been strong on cd-players. And they also have an sacd player.

Yes, there are a lot of options on the market. Loving my 6000CDT. Can see any of those you cited above working out. Showed some love to my brick and mortar shop and went with AudioLab.

 

[]eep]

Be glad you still have one... My friendly advisor for decades retired years ago.

The problem with real shops is their clientele is ageing and prices aren't going to attract young people like this. They rather turn to internet and order direct. And get their information here for instance. I fear that if aspiring audiophiles (music lovers) buy crappy equipment based on bad info from 'influencers' they're going to be put off and never come back.

 

[ardbeg1975]

>Anyway, I much prefer listening to CDs through my Teac VRDS 701 CD Player as opposed to my CD rips in uncompressed FLAC files. This stack here is due to some AB >comparisons between my Pontus 12th-1 and Pontus 15th....
I agree.

Teac VRDS 701 is good.
The “VRDS system” does appeal to me.
I am also in the process of comparing it to the “Esoteric CDP” as I want another CDT.

While it may not be rational, I really enjoy my “overbuilt”, survive an orbital strike TEAC 701T despite the convenience of Tidal/Qobuz streaming or CD rips into an Innuos Zenith NG. Perhaps, it’s the physicality of the CD ownership (in my case of a lot of out-of-print, not on streaming Mo’ Wax Trip Hop releases).

 

[]eep]

While it may not be rational, I really enjoy my “overbuilt”, survive an orbital strike TEAC 701T despite the convenience of Tidal/Qobuz streaming or CD rips into an Innuos Zenith NG. Perhaps, it’s the physicality of the CD ownership (in my case of a lot of out-of-print, not on streaming Mo’ Wax Trip Hop releases).

Hear hear!
After all it's all about the music (software).
I have a box full of mini discs. And no idea what's on it (probably Japanese music, which I'm very curious about). And I can't access it because it's double playtime which my older MD doesn't support.

Just like my modest stash of 78's is difficult to play. My setup for mono vinyl from the 50-ies and 60-ies is amazing. Like a time machine. You wonder why they switched to stereo. You can only appreciate this statement when you hear it.

So if you have a collection of physical media it's worth keeping it accessible. Although ripping them to FLAC would be a good idea. Just for safekeeping.

I think the SMSL P200t is a very solid and affordable option. Teac doesn't really seem like the old brand.