[GooseGrease]

Hello there. I know next to nothing about audio equipment and I have a question.
 
Whenever I use earbuds (eg ipod's) on my laptop, I have to set the volume very very low (1~5%) to get comfortable level of loudness out of them. Anything higher would probably rupture my eardrums. It's not just the current laptop either - all my previous laptops (and desktops, even) had the same problem. I tried other earbuds as well, including high quality ones from etymotic and they're still too loud. Furthermore, at such low volume, static hiss in the background is very apparent. I figured "well, tis life" and dealt with it, but now I'm increasingly curious to know what exactly is going on.
 
Clearly, the laptop headphone jacks aren't designed for these earbuds, but then what are they designed for? iPod and other portable media players work just fine with my earbuds, despite the fact that they use the exact same 3.5mm jacks. Aren't there some sort of standardization committee that decides how loud 3.5mm audio jacks should sound? why are there such wide variations?
 
I've googled this to the best of my abilities but I can't find the answer. I think the part of the problem is that I don't know what to search for. I know there are very smart and knowledgeable people here, so I figure it's the perfect place to ask.
 
Please forgive me if my question was too dumb(or irrelevant) for a science forum.

 

[SixthFall]

i'm pretty sure there is no standard to the volume of a 3.5 mm jack. It could just be that the jack has an amplifier with more gain than other jacks you used i guess.

 

[liamstrain]

Sounds like a crappy internal soundcard - not much you can do about it aside from replace or move to an off-board device like an external USB dac/amp or build a cord with a resistor/attenuator in it (which will knock out the hiss as well). The jack itself has nothing to do with the problem you are experiencing - it is a problem with either the soundcard or its controller drivers/software. 
 
I would check around in your device settings and make sure there is nothing switched on that would be boosting the gain... You might also be able to control the player volume in addition to the system volume, making the combination more listenable. 
 
 

 

[GooseGrease]

Thank you for your answers. I'm still confused though - I had laptops from various manufacturers - Sony, Dell, Lenovo, IBM, Kojinsha, Fujitsu and Acer (i think that's all of them). Some are worse than others (kohjinsha laptop, for example, the system volume had to be at 1%, whereas Lenovo was comfortable upto 10%) but they're all universally too loud. I am 99% positive that there were no options in device settings to boost gain on 3.5mm jacks - and if there were, I didn't touch them.
 
So clearly, laptop 3.5mm jacks, despite the little headphone logos, are not designed for the earbuds I am using. So the question still remains - what do the laptop manufacturers expect people to use? Do earbuds exist out there that has much lower volume? (require more power to drive, so to speak?)
 
Also, if there are no standardized volume for 3.5mm, then how do I know which earbuds or headphones to buy? If I went to bestbuy and tried to pick out a headphone, how would I know if it's too loud or too soft for my laptop or ipod etc?

 

[Mauricio]

The problem is fundamentally due to the efficiency of the earphones.  Earphones tend to be very efficient, meaning that it takes a very small voltage to drive them.  The headphone amp in your laptop is designed to drive much less efficient headphones.  The problem with my laptop is the opposite.  They cannot adequately drive my headphones.  Why?  One reason is that they are much less efficient that yours.  The other is the higher impedance.

 

[khaos974]

For all intent and purpose there is very little standardisation when it comes to audio output for laptop and 3.5 mm jacks, there are a few norm for audio output, but except for pro audio gear, they are rarely respected. That said, most laptops should have a maximum output voltage at around 1V, mind you, it's just ball park figure.
 
Leaving aside that issue, an audio output is characterized by different factors, among those are signal and noise, the noise level is what you call the background hiss, the signal level is controlled by the volume control. So at lower volume, the signal/noise ratio is lower, hiss is more audible. You need earphones that have a proper sound pressure level when the volume is set higher, let's say 20% for example.
 
So, the spec you need to check is sensitivity, it gives you the sound pressure level of the headphones to a specific electrical level, it's either in dB/V (referenced to the voltage) or in dB/mW (referenced to power). Unfortunately, without knowing the output level of the jack and the impedance of the headphones, it's impossible to know if they will be driven properly even if there are safe choices such at the ATH-M50.

 

[liamstrain]

Quote:

 
So clearly, laptop 3.5mm jacks, despite the little headphone logos, are not designed for the earbuds I am using. So the question still remains - what do the laptop manufacturers expect people to use? Do earbuds exist out there that has much lower volume? (require more power to drive, so to speak?)
 
Also, if there are no standardized volume for 3.5mm, then how do I know which earbuds or headphones to buy? If I went to bestbuy and tried to pick out a headphone, how would I know if it's too loud or too soft for my laptop or ipod etc?

Most full size headphones are less sensitive than earbuds and in-ear-monitors, and require more power from the headphone jack to power well. 
 
There is no standard volume/gain - though usually it is not this much of a problem (most people have the opposite problem, the built in amps do not have enough power available). I would recommend trying an inexpensive dac/amp to see if you have better luck, if you like your earbuds. The FiiO E10, for instance. 
 
If you do not with to do that, you could make a custom EQ for your headphones that is a flat EQ, lowered a good 6-10db.

 

[GooseGrease]

Thank you. You guys have been very helpful. I guess I'll give headphones a try - I've always avoid using those with my laptops because they're less comfortable than earbuds. (although my worry now is that I may run into the opposite problem as you guys mentioned and end up spending even more money on amps or dacs like FiiO E10).
 
BTW, I know there are amps, but is there such thing as an opposite of amp (pma, as it were) that takes high-power signal and reduce it down to something suitable for small earbuds? Or are all amps capable of doing that?

 

[liamstrain]

Yes. An impedance adapter or resistor cable/attenuator.
 
Here is a home-made one:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/71148/diy-cable-gallery/4650#post_6059302
 
There are commercially made ones, but they are mostly single channel and XLR terminated for microphone use. 
 
 
Ultimately though, these *can* have an effect on the frequency response of the headphone, and you'll usually get a better result with a good low gain amplifier. 

 

[SixthFall]

 
Quote:

 (although my worry now is that I may run into the opposite problem as you guys mentioned and end up spending even more money on amps or dacs like FiiO E10).
 
BTW, I know there are amps, but is there such thing as an opposite of amp (pma, as it were) that takes high-power signal and reduce it down to something suitable for small earbuds? Or are all amps capable of doing that?

on the first point, now that you are here at head-fi, that is pretty much inevitable 

 
For the second, i think you can get little plugs that look like a female to male 3.5mm adapter that increase resistance. try a google search for one. should be cheap enough. (sorry i have no experience with these, perhaps someone else could explain better)
 

 

[SixthFall]

Quote:

Yes. An impedance adapter or resistor cable/attenuator.
 
Here is a home-made one:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/71148/diy-cable-gallery/4650#post_6059302
 
There are commercially made ones, but they are mostly single channel and XLR terminated for microphone use. 
 
 
Ultimately though, these *can* have an effect on the frequency response of the headphone, and you'll usually get a better result with a good low gain amplifier. 

opps, missed that post
 
 

 

[GooseGrease]

Thanks. I found this thing on ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Etymotic-ER4P-to-ER4S-3-5MM-plug-resistor-adaptor-/270919769767?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f14139ea7#ht_1852wt_1139
 
I don't know what the numbers mean, but I figure it's so cheap I got nothing to lose.

 

[liamstrain]

That should work. Like I said, you might notice some shift in how the headphones sound... in the end, you may still want to move towards an amp. But in the meantime, that looks like a good possible solution. 

 

[GooseGrease]

 I just ordered one. Should get it in 2~3 weeks. If you guys don't hear from me again then, that means all's well and I'm happy.  
I'm not too concerned with change in frequency response or tonal shift - not sure if I'd be able to detect it or not, but as long as the hiss is gone/reduced and I don't have to set the volume to minimum all the time, the tradeoff would be worth it.
Thank you again for all your help.

 

[brod]

If you want to get the most out of laptop onboard sound (or any other less-than-ideal source) what you need are high sensitivity headphones that have high impedance. When the output impedance of the source isn't known, high impedance cans are always a good idea, because higher impedance = larger damping factor.