[Music Alchemist]

I would describe such arguments as largely cognitive dissonance driven based on expectations of performance due to money spent and the influence of others telling one that performance can be improved. Unfortunately, actual "research" does not actually support that guy's observations. But JBL/Harman Kardon has confirmed through research that people will chose more expensive equipment and better looking equipment to sound better, even though when they have been proven otherwise not to be when the opportunity for that bias has been eliminated.

The Internet is certainly great, though. It's possible to find a purely subjective based evaluation supporting almost any opinion. In case anyone didn't know, some flavors of dry dog food taste good. Anyone ready to go out and get some for dinner?

 

Here's the thing...that article does not mention any measurement. He says the cables helped, and then he describes the effects in vague terms. No microphone in the room, no O-Scopes on the signals, and no apparent way of controlling the variables between tests. (Was everything connected properly before? Did something else get unplugged from the power strip? Did something move in the room?)

I really don't want to dive into a debate on cables (let's not abuse deceased equines), so I'll just say that cables are a very discrete, "it either works or it doesn't" component in the system. As long as you know the bare minimum you need, it's easy to get the most out of your wiring.

 
As much as I would like to link to more scientific studies, that information is harder to come by, particularly in relation to harder-to-come-by cables. I strongly doubt it's due to self-deception when dozens (if not hundreds, or thousands) of people claim to experience a complete night and day transformation of their system upon switching cables. Many more people have experienced smaller differences between cables - but the changes were often just as significant as switching headphones, etc.

 

[cel4145]

I strongly doubt it's due to self-deception when dozens (if not hundreds, or thousands) of people claim to experience a complete night and day transformation of their system upon switching cables.

And yet, there are scientific studies that prove exactly that--that people do hear what they want to hear when it comes to all different kinds of audio equipment (cables, amps, speakers). Expectation bias coupled with poor audio memory influences audio evaluation. Proven. Repeatedly. Real.

 

[Music Alchemist]

And yet, there are scientific studies that prove exactly that--that people do hear what they want to hear when it comes to all different kinds of audio equipment (cables, amps, speakers). Expectation bias coupled with poor audio memory influences audio evaluation. Proven. Repeatedly. Real.

 
That type of generalization isn't entirely accurate, as it applies on a case-by-case basis. For example, I replaced the exact same cable (two years old vs brand new) and it made a world of difference - from muddy to clear, in comparison.
 
What is the main point you are trying to get across here? That all cables sound the same? Some may, but certainly not all.

 

[superjawes]

That type of generalization isn't entirely accurate, as it applies on a case-by-case basis. For example, I replaced the exact same cable (two years old vs brand new) and it made a world of difference - from muddy to clear, in comparison.

What is the main point you are trying to get across here? That all cables sound the same? Some may, but certainly not all.

Cel is actually treading closely to a subject that is against the rules of this subforum (that "DBT-free" part). He's pointing out that unless you have a strong way to control your before and after tests, you are relying on human memory, which is easily influenced.

 

[cel4145]

That type of generalization isn't entirely accurate, as it applies on a case-by-case basis. For example, I replaced the exact same cable (two years old vs brand new) and it made a world of difference - from muddy to clear, in comparison.

What is the main point you are trying to get across here? That all cables sound the same? Some may, but certainly not all.

I'm saying that you should doubt your subjective evaluation even in that instance because of the known issues with expectation bias and audio memory. I guess it's always possible your cable went bad, but what cable is it such that would happen? Interconnects won't go bad unless one is plugging and unplugging them a lot or bending them a lot. Speaker cables aren't going to go bad.

 

[Music Alchemist]

Cel is actually treading closely to a subject that is against the rules of this subforum (that "DBT-free" part). He's pointing out that unless you have a strong way to control your before and after tests, you are relying on human memory, which is easily influenced.

 

I'm saying that you should doubt your subjective evaluation even in that instance because of the known issues with expectation bias and audio memory. I guess it's always possible your cable went bad, but what cable is it such that would happen? Interconnects won't go bad unless one is plugging and unplugging them a lot or bending them a lot. Speaker cables aren't going to go bad.

 
It was a headphone cable, and the differences were drastic and unmistakable, trust me. I also have a remote cable that doesn't sound half as good.

 

[Chris J]

I doesn't sound like you are all that familiar with all these debates and the scope of them. There is controversy over these other things. However, the difference is so few people are buying exotic tubes and caps vs. cables, that it doesn't get as much attention. On the other hand, the expensive cable industry is big money in audio, and it has been for decades.

 


Actually, the opposite.
I am extremely familar with these debates.

Judging by what I read here, it sounds like two factors:
#1 the money, the high dollars make many people see red
#2 the fact that you go into a stereo store and the salesman tries to push expensive cables on you

With uber expensive tubes, you don't go into a stereo store and have to listen to a slaesman push you into buying uber expensive tubes or capacitors, etc.

So it's the big money factor in cables.................?

 

[Chris J]

Ask any studio if they have silver cables for their mic

 


They obsess endlessly over microphones, mic pre-amps, mixing consoles, limiters, compressors, EQs, etc.
Some of them do swear by brand X audiophile cables.
They obsess over:
Should we use a vacuum tube mic preamp or a SS mic pre-amp to record the lead vocal?
Which vacuum tube pre-amp?"
etc. etc. etc.

I have a jazz album somewhere that states "recording using Monster Cable" or words to that effect. It may may be another brand of cable.
I bought the album in the early 90's, so I can't remember which one it is.....
No it's not from an audiophile label.

 

[cel4145]

Actually, the opposite.
I am extremely familar with these debates.

Judging by what I read here, it sounds like two factors:
#1 the money, the high dollars make many people see red
#2 the fact that you go into a stereo store and the salesman tries to push expensive cables on you

With uber expensive tubes, you don't go into a stereo store and have to listen to a slaesman push you into buying uber expensive tubes or capacitors, etc.

So it's the big money factor in cables.................?

Exactly. You don't find discussions of tube nuances except in tube rolling threads. And I doubt any of the newbies on this website have ever heard of capacitor replacement. Everyone has to have cables.

Now if you go over to AVS Forum and post in their audio theory section about the benefits of expensive exotic cables or capacitors, they are going to treat you like you are crazy either way. LOL

 

[Chris J]

Exactly. You don't find discussions of tube nuances except in tube rolling threads. And I doubt any of the newbies on this website have ever heard of capacitor replacement. Everyone has to have cables.

Now if you go over to AVS Forum and post in their audio theory section about the benefits of expensive exotic cables or capacitors, they are going to treat you like you are crazy either way. LOL

That all makes sense.
Everyone needs cables.
I think it is a Head Fi thing.
The guys on Audiogon forums don't seem to get as rabid and foaming at the mouth WRT cables the way many Head Fi-ers do.

I have noticed that you can pay astronomical sums for the "right" vintage tube, yet no one one barks at the exotic tube rollers the way they bark at exotic cable rollers.

Capacitors are really out there.

Hypothetical case:
You buy a tube amp.
You listen to it for a few days or weeks.
Then you decide you will upgrade the coupling capacitors.
So you spend big bucks plus an hour or two taking your amp apart and replacing the coupling caps.
Then you listen.
At this point it is really hard to say the new caps sound better as you also have your own time invested in the modification!

 

[cel4145]

That all makes sense.
Everyone needs cables.
I think it is a Head Fi thing.
The guys on Audiogon forums don't seem to get as rabid and foaming at the mouth WRT cables the way many Head Fi-ers do.

My sense is that a lot of people at Audiogon are probably the types that get into expensive cables. Go here and create a post about how great exotic cables are and see what happens. :evil:
(AVS stands for Audio Video Science)

 

[Speedskater]

  Ask any studio if they have silver cables for their mic

Well some studio's do have boutique cables.  The part they don't talk about is the financial arrangements for those cables.

 

[prot]

    As a brand new audiophile, I'm still learning the ropes. I've never had a hobby where so many fellow hobbyists have conflicting, contradictory information --
 
 

 
There is no "conflicted information" on cables just a lot of conflicted people: conflicts of interests, conflicts of neurons, etc... The science and the tests are clear on cables and there is no "jury out there" debating cables. Just a bunch of slick cable salesmen and another bunch of poor souls who think their ears are better than an osciloscope. 

 

[Music Alchemist]

  There is no "conflicted information" on cables just a lot of conflicted people: conflicts of interests, conflicts of neurons, etc... The science and the tests are clear on cables and there is no "jury out there" debating cables. Just a bunch of slick cable salesmen and another bunch of poor souls who think their ears are better than an osciloscope. 

 
Even if all high-end cables sound the same, it's laughably easy to hear the difference between a normal and a remote cable. (The types included with many mid-fi headphones.)

 

[Chris J]

   
Even if all high-end cables sound the same, it's laughably easy to hear the difference between a normal and a remote cable. (The types included with many mid-fi headphones.)

 
Not too sure I understand what a remote cable is?