complex simplicity

Aug 4, 2005 at 4:25 AM Post #121 of 167
We enjoy music by first describing it, non-verbally and outside of awareness. This is a perceptual analysis and synthesis (intellectual) process by which we integrate a model of the music. This perceptual phase code could potentially be expressed mathematically. It takes more perceptual intelligence to model more complicated music. A mentally dumb person could not do it with Beethoven’s ninth – the exception to this is a person who is an idiot savant whose special ability was music (there are some of these people and then can play anything on the piano that they hear once).

This perceptual modeling is the source of cognitive exercise pleasure release, just as is solving a crossword puzzle.

The next source of music enjoyment is emotional fulfillment. This requires creative intelligence whereby the objective code of modeled (perceptually integrated) is now integrated with emotional activations and reductions. Here the music is an emotional language (communicates emotion) and must be interpreted. Music of the romantic period is generally more emotional than that of the classical period, with some exceptions. Anyone who fails to recognize this will not follow any of the material herein – they should stop reading now so as not to waste their time.

Now, although music is objectively interpreted in the first phase of perceptual integration, music is interpreted subjectively in emotional interpretation. Most of us can learn to fairly accurately hum the “Ode to joy” of the ninth, thereby demonstrating some perceptual modeling, but that doesn’t mean that hearing this will give us pleasure – some will like to hear it while others don’t (even if they can hum it). Whether they like or not is a result of an evaluation.

An evaluation is a perceptual integration of an objective descriptive (or predictive) model with emotion.

Moral evaluations are usually considered as a special case of evaluation, but all evaluations are the same in terms of the psychological processes that produce them,

So what does morality have to do with music appreciation? It has much to do with it. The moral evaluations that underlie music enjoyment or lack of it are based on the same processes that underlie the morality of how we interact with each other.

Morality is an evaluation of actual and/or predicted reward and/or punishment implications in relation to self and/or others. When I say “Bob is a good person” I use the same evaluative processes as when I say “Beethoven’s ninth is a good symphony”.

Either of two people in a conflict say they are moral and that the conflicting party is immoral.

There is no absolute morality. It is always relative to self or others and always in conflict (somehow and somewhere). For instance, if I am opening a door to walk into a store, and see a woman approaching who is carrying packages, I am in moral conflict as to whether I should prioritize my needs to put myself first and walk into the store in front of the approaching woman (loving myself while hating her, albeit to a very mild degree) or to put here needs before mine and hold the door open to allow her to go in first (loving her while hating myself, again to a very mild degree). .

Resolution of such self-other moral conflicts always requires compromise, forced by political pressures (where guilt and/or anxiety over not compromising is a first-line pressure and war is the ultimate such pressure). Because of the politics, either of personality or of external pressures, might makes right in every moral conflict resolution. Affirmative action is an example - it would be imposed by the might of government (legislation or judicial) based on a principle of redress.

Moral principles are conceptual abstractions inductively formed to love or hate. We can kill in the name of morality. But even in moral principles, might makes right as determined by the outcome of the internal battle of personality dynamics that formed the moral principle.

Universal love is an over-generalized abstraction. In loving the world we hate ourselves, our families, and our countries. The Kyoto treaty is an example - it would cost the U.S. (ourselves, families, and nation) while benefiting the rest of the world.

Morality only exists as a personality evaluation the of reward/punishment aspects of an event (either an internal personality production or an external event) as predicted or actualized, where this personality evaluation is made from the perspective of the needs of self or others or both.

I know that the way we think makes us form generalizations as inductive abstractions from our past experience. We have a strong need to love, and to be loved, and we often seek being loved by loving. We abstract from experiences both of being loved and of loving, and from this assert the moral principle that loving others is good, and being loved is good. From this we construct a moral absolute: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you - and loving and helping everyone is good while hurting others and killing others is immoral or bad. We say this is true, and to give the idea force, we say it comes from God.

First of all, this idea does not emanate from the sub-quantum and quantum world of basic existence and is not in the classical world of particles and forces - the universe outside of humans is amoral - God outside of a construction of human personality is amoral (neither moral or immoral, but just is).

Second of all the idea is not true. Loving and helping others is sometimes evil as it promotes evil when the recipient is evil and exploits your love or uses it to destroy you. Killing is sometimes good as when it is done to save innocent lives.

Those who say killing is always evil, or that loving and helping others is always good, have no basis to assert this other than a faulty intellectual construction based on thought disorder.

Historical facts: Japan saw in 1944 that the USA and allies were preparing for an eventual invasion of their homeland. They starting then in preparing for a homeland defense that would slow the invasion as the Japanese slowly withdrew to defense bunkers and structures they were building. They even started training women and children to fight with wooden spears (not enough guns to go around)! Their strategy was to slow the encroachment on their soil for years, knowing it would be very difficult for the USA to supply troops and supplies across the ocean. Thus, after several years the USA would give up, negotiate a peace favorable to Japan, and then go home. This fight would have cost well over a million lives relative to the lives lost by our use of atomic bombs. To say we should have needlessly sacrificed over a million of U.S. and Japanese lives in letting WW II go on for years longer, and not use the atomic bombs is an evil view. The use of atomic bombs was a moral act, like amputating a leg to save a life. Japan effectively sanctioned our second atomic bomb attack on the Japanese, by their failure to surrender after the first attack, thereby killing their own people.

Welfare is an example of love that is evil. To provide for people unconditionally robs from hardworking people and gives to parasites who take from society without giving back in return. This is bad enough, but what happens is that the parasites multiply and non-parasites tend to become parasitic. The society then deteriorates (communist Russia) and everyone is hurt – evil rather than good for people.
 
Aug 4, 2005 at 5:23 AM Post #122 of 167
Quote:

Originally Posted by drarthurwells
All purposeful killing is moral.


rolleyes.gif
Why?

Quote:

Suddenly, a young Arab looking man, strats shouting in Arabic "Die infidels in the name of Allah". You understand this because your served in the Desert Storm war. You then see this Arab grapple with something under his shirt and suspect he is trying to detonate a bomb. You shoot him five times, killing him quickly.


I, too, am perturbed by the overabundance of infidel-murdering Arabs within the United States' shopping malls.

rolleyes.gif


True, his death is not as sinister as the death of assumedly innocent bystanders, but you forgot one thing:

Real life is not just numbers.

You act like everything is just numbers, like no one has a heart or can feel or cry or anything. It's like you're a robot or something, it's kind of creepy.

True, "World minus 1 Arab intent on killing people" is better than "World minus 20 mall bystanders", but that doesn't make killing him MORAL. It was a terrible thing that had to be done to save people's lives. But it's not moral. You're thinking like a trained killer and frankly that defies the whole structure of morality itself. Man was given a brain to rise above the lowly Kill Or Be Killed attitude of every other animal on the planet, not wallow in it. QED. Wake up.
 
Aug 4, 2005 at 9:04 AM Post #123 of 167
Quote:

Welfare is an example of love that is evil. To provide for people unconditionally robs from hardworking people and gives to parasites who take from society without giving back in return. This is bad enough, but what happens is that the parasites multiply and non-parasites tend to become parasitic. The society then deteriorates (communist Russia) and everyone is hurt – evil rather than good for people.


Depends on the perspective.

Welfare redistributes weatlth among a society, taking from those that have, and giving to those that don't. Thus, it prevents any one entity from becoming too wealthy, and thus, too powerful, as there is a *very* strong correlation between wealth and power. And when a single entity becomes too powerful, decisions are based not on the greater good, but rather the entity's good. So therefore, the *absence* of welfare becomes evil as you put it.

And you imply that everything is a loop, so therefore, what is wrong, from your perspective, with the parasite issue (If we take your view on welfare being evil)? A society will deteriorate and die, and in its death, a new one will form, and so on and so forth.

So if society's best interest is to keep itself 'alive' as long as possible, then discussing welfare as being a good/evil element is moot because it is both, just as practically everything is.

Quote:

All purposeful killing is moral.


The person being killed disagrees with you, quite strongly might I add
wink.gif


There was more, but reading this entire post at once has caused me to forget my other ramblings...

Edit: (I love how the mind wanders when trying to sleep, hehe...)

Getting back to the topic that was originally posted, the objective and relativistic 'properties' of music as we hear it...

Something being objective, means that it is constant (Or, at the very least, a constant process.), so lets call that constant '1'.

Something being relative, means that it varies, so lets calll that variable 'x'.

'1' + 'x' always varies, and is therefore, always relative.
 
Aug 4, 2005 at 9:50 AM Post #124 of 167
Dr Art, I am growing to love your posts. They provide an insight into a style of thinking so apposite to mine that I shudder to imagine the intellectual wasteland upon which we may happily co-exist.

As Star Trek famously sort of said, "The need of the one sometimes outweighs the good of the many."

Your principles lead to the kind of world where the strong prevail and the weak are abandoned or expoited. It is the philosophy of the bully and the tyrant, and makes me sympathise more with the extremist in the mall than with the government who provides the spurious "freedoms" that the inhabitants of the mall "enjoy".

But now I'm getting drawn into something I have tried so far to avoid. You provocateur, you!

As far as how this applies to music, your position seems to be built on a house of cards. You say "It takes more perceptual intelligence to model more complicated music", but you cannot prove that the music a "mentally dumb person" might enjoy is any less complex than your much referenced Ninth.

I'm sorry, but Beethoven's Ninth is less complex than much of the music that is popular today, including most rap.

You are intelligent, you like genre X, therefore genre X must be the kind of thing that intelligent people like, and intelligent people like complicated things, therefore genre X is complicated.

It ain't so.
 
Aug 4, 2005 at 4:35 PM Post #125 of 167
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sduibek
:
Real life is not just numbers.

You act like everything is just numbers, like no one has a heart or can feel or cry or anything. It's like you're a robot or something, it's kind of creepy.

True, "World minus 1 Arab intent on killing people" is better than "World minus 20 mall bystanders", but that doesn't make killing him MORAL. It was a terrible thing that had to be done to save people's lives. But it's not moral. You're thinking like a trained killer and frankly that defies the whole structure of morality itself. Man was given a brain to rise above the lowly Kill Or Be Killed attitude of every other animal on the planet, not wallow in it. QED. Wake up.



Art: You don't understand the role of unconscious emotion and its (sometimes) expression into awareness as feelings, in the universe. Whenever you "rise" above the universe you simply go into delusion and fantasy, escaping from reality - you think emotively/subjectively and not operantly/objectively. The high moral ground is a result of thought disorder, that goes for "feel good" thought insrtead of realistic thought.

People who say we should fight wars morally because to do otherwise would be "to stoop to their level" are advocating that we aid and assist our enemy who would kill us, and that we fight with one or more hands tied behind our backs. Such people are nuts.
 
Aug 4, 2005 at 4:46 PM Post #126 of 167
Quote:

Originally Posted by drarthurwells
Art: You don't understand the role of unconscious emotion and its (sometimes) expression into awareness as feelings, in the universe. Whenever you "rise" above the universe you simply go into delusion and fantasy, escaping from reality - you think emotively/subjectively and not operantly/objectively. The high moral ground is a result of thought disorder, that goes for "feel good" thought insrtead of realistic thought.


rolleyes.gif
Uh huh. And you are living the delusion that there's no higher ground - in effect, you are making yourself an unfeeling, dare i say sinister human being. See per's post above.

Quote:

People who say we should fight wars morally because to do otherwise would be "to stoop to their level" are advocating that we aid and assist our enemy who would kill us, and that we fight with one or more hands tied behind our backs. Such people are nuts.


I agree, these situations are pretty complicated and tricky.

But of course, as I assumed you would, you've never mentioned the possibility of settling things peacefully instead of just mass killing.
 
Aug 4, 2005 at 5:01 PM Post #127 of 167
Art: Welfare is an example of love that is evil. To provide for people unconditionally robs from hardworking people and gives to parasites who take from society without giving back in return. This is bad enough, but what happens is that the parasites multiply and non-parasites tend to become parasitic. The society then deteriorates (communist Russia) and everyone is hurt – evil rather than good for people.

Totoy: Depends on the perspective. Welfare redistributes weatlth among a society, taking from those that have, and giving to those that don't.

Art: No, you gloss over reality here. Welfare robs money from those who earned it and gives it to those who didn't earn it. This communistic/socialistic goal invariably creates a growing class of parasites in society who thrive and reproduce more parasites, destroying the nation. The model is Russia and Cuba.

Totoy: Thus, it prevents any one entity from becoming too wealthy, and thus, too powerful, as there is a *very* strong correlation between wealth and power. And when a single entity becomes too powerful, decisions are based not on the greater good, but rather the entity's good. So therefore, the *absence* of welfare becomes evil as you put it.

Art: Not in a democracy. My vote is as powerful as the rich man's. The rich can only buy more, and that does not give them power over me. If I allow my vote to be influenced by campaign propaganda financed by the rich to influence my vote their way, then that is my fault. Intelligence is power,and that is the rule of the universe.

Totoy: And you imply that everything is a loop, so therefore, what is wrong, from your perspective, with the parasite issue (If we take your view on welfare being evil)? A society will deteriorate and die, and in its death, a new one will form, and so on and so forth. So if society's best interest is to keep itself 'alive' as long as possible, then discussing welfare as being a good/evil element is moot because it is both, just as practically everything is.

Art: Not a loop, but a fluctuation around a mean of dynamic parity in which opposing forces swing up and down relative to aone another (yin and yang). And yes, everything is both good and evil but not equally so, and always from the perspective of a given individual. God and evil are unimportant from a universal perspective, but vitally important to the individual and others who hate or love that individual. Moot and not moot.

Art: All purposeful killing is moral.

Totoy: The person being killed disagrees with you, quite strongly might I add.

Art: Exactly, since all morality is relative. The killing is immoral (except to a suicidal person) to the victim but moral or good to the killer, when it is purposeful and not accidental (but even here moral aspects result, as when a hated person dies in an accident).

Totoy: Getting back to the topic that was originally posted, the objective and relativistic 'properties' of music as we hear it...Something being objective, means that it is constant (Or, at the very least, a constant process.), so lets call that constant '1'.

Something being relative, means that it varies, so lets calll that variable 'x'.

'1' + 'x' always varies, and is therefore, always relative.

Art: Not true. Objective is the way things exist. Subjective is the way we create in our minds, which sometimes corresponds to reality, and here the subjectivity becomes objective. Emotion skews logic. Emotion is a source of creativity and subjectivity.

A process may repeat but the products are always changing. What you call a constant is only a repeating process. Constants can change also. The speed of light varies under different conditions, and has even varied slightly as the earth as aged. Even constants are relative - they are are generally constant.
 
Aug 4, 2005 at 5:19 PM Post #128 of 167
periurban: As Star Trek famously sort of said, "The need of the one sometimes outweighs the good of the many."

Art: Yes, and that is a criminal morality. The first level of morality is selfish - what is good is what benefits me. The second is family - my relatives come first. The third is group (friends, club, nation) - the good of the nation comes first. We shift between these perspectives constantly - we seek genetic inclusion - continuance of our genes, tot he extent possible, in the gene pool - survival of our genes. The kicker is that in order to accomplish this we often hate ourselves and love others in denying our selfishness and helping others (kin, freinds, nation). Those who consistently assert selfishnes are criminals - a type of parasite tha tneeds to be nullified or eliminated.

periurban: Your principles lead to the kind of world where the strong prevail and the weak are abandoned or expoited. It is the philosophy of the bully and the tyrant, and makes me sympathise more with the extremist in the mall than with the government who provides the spurious "freedoms" that the inhabitants of the mall "enjoy".

Art: My principles describe the world as it exists. Your views describe a world that never was. is, or could be except in a brief and isolated instance that would soon perish as the universe self-corrected. Your sympathy with terrorists is for insane reasons - to make the world a better place.

periurban: You provocateur, you!

Art: Damn. You got my number.

periurban: As far as how this applies to music, your position seems to be built on a house of cards. You say "It takes more perceptual intelligence to model more complicated music", but you cannot prove that the music a "mentally dumb person" might enjoy is any less complex than your much referenced Ninth.

Art: Yep, the Retardates love Beethoven and Mahler. Fact is they generally enjoy little music or TV, except for some pop and cartoons. Proves my point.

periurban: I'm sorry, but Beethoven's Ninth is less complex than much of the music that is popular today, including most rap.

Art: I found the opposite to be true. Pop and rap are primitive and repetitive.
 
Aug 4, 2005 at 5:29 PM Post #129 of 167
Art: You don't understand the role of unconscious emotion and its (sometimes) expression into awareness as feelings, in the universe. Whenever you "rise" above the universe you simply go into delusion and fantasy, escaping from reality - you think emotively/subjectively and not operantly/objectively. The high moral ground is a result of thought disorder, that goes for "feel good" thought insrtead of realistic thought.

S.: Uh huh. And you are living the delusion that there's no higher ground - in effect, you are making yourself an unfeeling, dare i say sinister human being. See per's post above.

Art: No, there is a moral higher ground, constructed in disordered thought of idealism that is divorced from relaity. Living that idealism, in your daily behavior, is a source of pleasure. Being "good" is fulfilling. It also leads to self-defeat and self-suffering as the world constantly disproves our foolish idealsim (which many people blithely ignore in perpetual self-delusion).

Art: People who say we should fight wars morally because to do otherwise would be "to stoop to their level" are advocating that we aid and assist our enemy who would kill us, and that we fight with one or more hands tied behind our backs. Such people are nuts.

S.: I agree, these situations are pretty complicated and tricky. But of course, as I assumed you would, you've never mentioned the possibility of settling things peacefully instead of just mass killing.

Art; Sure. Negotiate with Hitler. Chamberlain tried it. Negotiate with terrorists. All they want is for us to die. Pre-emptive aggression is sometimes best - go after and kill them before they kill you - and this is self-defense against predicted attack on the part of the enemy.
 
Aug 4, 2005 at 9:06 PM Post #130 of 167
Quote:

Originally Posted by drarthurwells
Living that idealism, in your daily behavior, is a source of pleasure. Being "good" is fulfilling. It also leads to self-defeat and self-suffering as the world constantly disproves our foolish idealsim


Does it? I feel pretty good living as an Idealist. You just have to wise up a bit, that's all. An idealistic child, sure, they feel self-defeat and suffering frequently, but a wiser Idealist feels none of that, and all the pleasure of idealism. In addition, these are the people that actually make a difference in the world.

What do you do to make the world a better place? I rest my case.

Good day to you, I will take my leave of this thread before it becomes too trudged in Politics, re: the HeadFi rules.
 
Aug 4, 2005 at 11:41 PM Post #131 of 167
Not saying we shouldn't always try to reach the ideal -
but this must be firmly grounded in reality.

Only when our "pollyanna" idealistic view causes us to overlook reality is this a problem.

Music is a different than life.

Music is where we can freely emerge ourselves in emotion and ignore reality. Same with movies. Same with artistic expression like playing music, etc.

Now, perhaps this is reality at another level (from the material world).

Perhaps in some ways it is equally as real, or even more real.

Takes us back to Plato's dualism.
 
Aug 5, 2005 at 9:37 AM Post #132 of 167
Dr Art, you don't know what my world view is, only that it is diametrically opposed to yours.

I didn't say I sympathised with terrorists.

The world isn't the way you paint it. Terrorists don't just want us to die, any more than we just want them to die. We want them to go away and leave us alone, and that's what they want too. The fact that we are stronger than them, and abuse our strength by exploiting them is why they attack us.

The problem for your proactive approach to defending yourself is that it begins and promotes the cycle of violence, which is a cycle that cannot be ended by violent means short of genocide.

The British government has learned this the hard way with regard to Northern Ireland. The USA will learn it too, as have Russia, the French, the Chinese and countless other mature nations all over the world.

The choice is stark on that one - negotiate or eliminate.

As for the welfare state gobbling up wealth and depositing steaming piles of dependency into society, nothing could be further from the truth. The European economy does very well under the burden of a socially responsible welfare state.

The welfare state protects the state from the very things you worry about. It means that people don't have to steal or kill to eat and clothe themselves when they fall on hard times. It means that people don't seek to flee the country for greener fields.

How can the state steal from the rich? It is the state that creates the conditions that allow the rich to become rich. This side of anarchy everything ultimately belongs to the state.

Quite what any of this has to do with music, I don't know. Perhaps the only link I can make is that you seem to be as deluded about the ways of the world as you are about the complexities of music.
 
Aug 5, 2005 at 12:11 PM Post #134 of 167
Hey, we're having fun here! Come on in, the water's a fluid medium in which individual molecules vibrate at frequencies above their median norm.
 
Aug 5, 2005 at 4:19 PM Post #135 of 167
periurban: I didn't say I sympathised with terrorists.

Art: Here is what you said and my reply:

periurban: Your principles lead to the kind of world where the strong prevail and the weak are abandoned or expoited. It is the philosophy of the bully and the tyrant, and makes me sympathise more with the extremist in the mall than with the government who provides the spurious "freedoms" that the inhabitants of the mall "enjoy".

Art: My principles describe the world as it exists. Your views describe a world that never was. is, or could be except in a brief and isolated instance that would soon perish as the universe self-corrected. Your sympathy with terrorists is for insane reasons - to make the world a better place.

periurban: Terrorists don't just want us to die, any more than we just want them to die. We want them to go away and leave us alone, and that's what they want too. The fact that we are stronger than them, and abuse our strength by exploiting them is why they attack us.

Art: They just want us to leave them alone? Funny. They want to kill - even their own people, and rationalize/justify their sadism with religion and lies. You apparently have bought into their lies - you say we exploit them as they say. What is your evidence of this? It costs them less than $2 a barrel for oil they sell for over $60 a barrel - who is exploiting whom?

periurban: The problem for your proactive approach to defending yourself is that it begins and promotes the cycle of violence, which is a cycle that cannot be ended by violent means short of genocide....The choice is stark on that one - negotiate or eliminate.

Art: No, it brings the killers out of hiding so they can be killed. Revenge is only a factor with weakness of the prior aggression. When your defensive counter-aggression is sufficient, like when we used atomic bombs against Japan, you get peace-loving compliance and no revenge. Since terrorists hide behind the skirts of women and their children, delivering a death blow to them takes time. If you ignore them and don't take the fight to them, they grow stronger and will attack you more later. Negotiation is useless until the terrorists see defeat for them written in the sand. I suppose you view them as "freedom fighters".

periurban: The British government has learned this the hard way with regard to Northern Ireland. The USA will learn it too, as have Russia, the French, the Chinese and countless other mature nations all over the world.

Art: Yes, they learned it takes time and determination. The IRA is nearly defeated at this time, ready to give up the fight.


periurban: As for the welfare state gobbling up wealth and depositing steaming piles of dependency into society, nothing could be further from the truth. The European economy does very well under the burden of a socially responsible welfare state.

Art: That's really funny. Economic growth over the last 20 years has been 3 times greater than in Europe. Unemployment, no problem in the USA, is a real serious problem for France and Germany. However, the USA is going down the socialistic road like Europe - things will get worse over the next 20 years for all of the western nations.

periurban: The welfare state protects the state from the very things you worry about. It means that people don't have to steal or kill to eat and clothe themselves when they fall on hard times. It means that people don't seek to flee the country for greener fields.

Art: Why is the crime rate rising faster in Europe than in the USA? London is more crime ridden than any USA city.

periurban: How can the state steal from the rich? It is the state that creates the conditions that allow the rich to become rich. This side of anarchy everything ultimately belongs to the state.

Art: Wow! Can you spin. Taxes aren't voluntary - the state steals money from its citizens in taxing them. Since the state taxes the rich at a much greater percentage than they tax the poor, and since the state gives much more to the poor than to the rich, the state steals money from the rich who earned it and gives it to the poor who did not earn it. Welfare in many forms, including retirement and medical benefits, is the way the state gives the poor some of what it steals, overwhelmingly from the rich.

periurban: Quite what any of this has to do with music, I don't know. Perhaps the only link I can make is that you seem to be as deluded about the ways of the world as you are about the complexities of music.

Art: Yes and a single drum, beat at a consistent and constant rhythm, is as lovely as Beethoven's ninth. The delusions you attribute to me are your own, which go unrecognized by yourself.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top