complex simplicity
Aug 5, 2005 at 4:20 PM Post #136 of 167
Quote:

Originally Posted by periurban
Hey, we're having fun here! Come on in, the water's a fluid medium in which individual molecules vibrate at frequencies above their median norm.


Yuuuckkkk!

I always knew that there was a good reason for me to never drink that stuff.
 
Aug 7, 2005 at 9:09 AM Post #138 of 167
Dr Art.

Um. Facts and figures, statistics and lies. Well, where do we go from here?

It's funny isn't it, that the behaviour you attribute to terrorists is the same they attribute to countries like the US and the UK. Back to that old morality thing again.

The poor of Iraq are not getting $60 a barrel. The peoples of Iraq and Palestine have friends. There are many ways to be exploited, not all of which revolve around money.

The killers who are in hiding are not killers. They are ordinary people who are turned into killers by the cycle of violence.

I make no apologies for terrorists, I abhor what they do, but then so do I abhor the actions of aggressive nation states in the pursuance of their ends in foreign countries. Is it worse to kill women and children by suicide bomb or by stealth bomber? Whose aims are just?

You know very little if you believe that the IRA have given up their weapons because they have been defeated. They have been given the political voice that they were denied, the terrorists who committed crimes in the pursuance of that goal have had their sentences reduced and most are now free. Far from being defeated the IRA have gained almost everything they wanted, and they have learned the value of compromise by having their views listened to. Margaret Thatcher had no success in adopting a hard line. It was only when both sides began to negotiate that the violence stopped.

I think you'll find that if the balance of payments, the deficit in the US is taken into account, any economic growth has been paid for by spiralling and uncontrollable debt.

As you very well know, the reasons for economic difficulty in Germany are to do with the costs of re-unification. I make no apology for the French. They are a law unto themselves! But the UK is doing quite well (with a National Health Service and a welfare state).

Across the board crime in the US is at a much higher level per head of population than it is in Europe, and in countries with a progressive and socially responsible welfare state (like the UK) it is falling.

The point about taxes is that they are not "stealing" from anyone, but sensibly re-distributing wealth from where it isn't needed to where it is. The alternative is anarchy.

Doubtless we are all guilty of delusions, me included. But Beethoven's music is banal and obvious, neither beautiful nor complex.
 
Aug 7, 2005 at 11:21 AM Post #139 of 167
periban: It's funny isn't it, that the behaviour you attribute to terrorists is the same they attribute to countries like the US and the UK. Back to that old morality thing again.

Art: Absolutely true. Both sides are neither moral or immoral, except in their own eyes or the eyes of others. Same with music - Beethoven's ninth is neither good nor bad, except to the individual perceiver.

So what makes a thing moral or good? Might makes right. If the terrorists win, then their moral views of the war prevail. If enough people like Beethoven's ninth so that it continues to sell, then it is a good work. It is all about politics - the power decides.

periurban: The poor of Iraq are not getting $60 a barrel. The peoples of Iraq and Palestine have friends. There are many ways to be exploited, not all of which revolve around money.

Art: Usauma bin Laden and his followers say that the west exploits the Arabs. We pay $60 a barrel for oil that costs $2 to produce. So the Arabs are exploiting the west and not the other way around. If Arab citizens are being exploited it is by their own leaders. What other ways of exploitation are operative here?

periurban: The killers who are in hiding are not killers. They are ordinary people who are turned into killers by the cycle of violence.

Art: They are sadists who want to kill. The ordinary Arab or Islamist is against terrorism (particularly true of the Iraqi people) and the violent acts of the terrorists, and would never commit terrorist acts - yet they too have experienced the cycle of violence which you erroneously assert is the cause of terrorist violence. If the cycle of violence was the cause of terrorism then the majority would be terrorists instead of just a small minority.

periurban: Is it worse to kill women and children by suicide bomb or by stealth bomber? Whose aims are just?

Art: Neither and both - might makes right. I am all for killing women and children if they provide support or cover for the terrorists among them - otherwise we fight them with our hands tied behind our back (aid and assist the enemy in this process). The women and childern should turn in the terrorists among them or be prepared to be bombed if they don't. This is the only way to get rid of the terrorists and we haven't done near enough of this.

periurban: You know very little if you believe that the IRA have given up their weapons because they have been defeated. They have been given the political voice that they were denied, the terrorists who committed crimes in the pursuance of that goal have had their sentences reduced and most are now free. Far from being defeated the IRA have gained almost everything they wanted, and they have learned the value of compromise by having their views listened to. Margaret Thatcher had no success in adopting a hard line. It was only when both sides began to negotiate that the violence stopped.

Art: Balderdash! It was only when the IRA saw the futility of their effort that they took the path of negotiation. Same with the Palestinians who are finally becoming anti-terroristic - a minority is still causing trouble though. This realization of futility is the defeat of terrorism. It is beginning to spread through-out the mideast. The terrorists are already defeated but they just haven't yet realized it. It is a futile endeavor.

periurban: I think you'll find that if the balance of payments, the deficit in the US is taken into account, any economic growth has been paid for by spiralling and uncontrollable debt.

Art: Not true. The USA debt was balanced before 9/11/01 and current economic growth is paying it down now. Have you ever heard of the gross domestic product (GDP) measure of a nation's economic strength? Compare the USA's to Europe.

periurban: As you very well know, the reasons for economic difficulty in Germany are to do with the costs of re-unification. I make no apology for the French. They are a law unto themselves! But the UK is doing quite well (with a National Health Service and a welfare state).

Art: Good points.

periurban: Across the board crime in the US is at a much higher level per head of population than it is in Europe, and in countries with a progressive and socially responsible welfare state (like the UK) it is falling.

Art:Not true. Crime is dropping in the USA while rising in Britain. The citizens of Britain are denied any use of weapons to defend against stronger and violent criminals. The Tony Martin case shows how nutty British law is.

periurban: The point about taxes is that they are not "stealing" from anyone, but sensibly re-distributing wealth from where it isn't needed to where it is. The alternative is anarchy.

Art: No, government steals money from those who earn it and give ito those that did not earn it under (socialistic) government entitlements. Over half of the income taxes in the USA are paid for by less than 4 percent of the population. The money and services that government gives out hardly goes at all to the 4 percent who paid for most of them. You can't spin this unless you lie to yourself. Your idea of robbing from those who don't ned it and giving to those who do need it is communism (to each according to their need), and this will eventually destroy a nation.

periurban: Doubtless we are all guilty of delusions, me included. But Beethoven's music is banal and obvious, neither beautiful nor complex.

Art: In two sentences you assert an idea and then prove it!

Seriously, I have to agree with you to a slight degree, at least with much of Beethoven.
 
Aug 8, 2005 at 12:06 PM Post #140 of 167
Dr Art, you say, "Might makes right. If the terrorists win, then their moral views of the war prevail. If enough people like Beethoven's ninth so that it continues to sell, then it is a good work. It is all about politics - the power decides." Of course, that's correct, but how much misery and suffering could be avoided if compromise was sought to begin with? (And how many bad re-recordings of hackneyed old tosh.)

The IRA was pro-active regardless of the fact that they knew they could not achieve their goals by violence alone. The purpose of the violence was to stimulate the British government to accept that re-unification was a valid political goal. The trouble began in 1969 as a response to the heavy handed policing carried out by the RUC and the Army against those who sought to protest (relatively) peacefully, and to protect against persecution of the Catholic minority by the Protestant majority. The Bloody Sunday murders were the start of it.

It is often the intransigence of authority that begins the cycle, and only the compassion of an understanding authority can end it. That's what the US has still to learn.

There are numerous examples of where the superpowers of the day have had to negotiate settlement after terrorist activity. Terrorist activity ends when a negotiated settlement is reached. How long will it take for the same lessons to be learned in Palestine and Iraq?

Compromise is not weakness. It shows maturity.

Your characterisation of the terrorist psyche is laughable, akin to the Die Hard school of psychoanalysis. Sure, there are brutes who enjoy inflicting pain, who associate themselves with any cause that allows them to practice their otherwise unacceptable behaviour. That applies to both sides of any conflict.

But there are also those who are driven to action by the circumstances under which they find themselves. A suicide bomber isn't a sadist, he (or she) is a fundamentalist who believes that heaven awaits. Terrorist organisations are filled with ordinary men and women who are deluded enough to think that violence is ever a reasonable means to an end. It is the same delusion that illuminates the minds of their oppressors.

You say, "The ordinary Arab or Islamist is against terrorism (particularly true of the Iraqi people) and the violent acts of the terrorists, and would never commit terrorist acts - yet they too have experienced the cycle of violence which you erroneously assert is the cause of terrorist violence. If the cycle of violence was the cause of terrorism then the majority would be terrorists instead of just a small minority."

There is no such thing as an "Islamist". The correct term is Muslim. But again, you miss the point spectacularly. Ever been in a crowd where a volunteer is asked for? You're just on the point of volunteering when someone else steps forward. If they hadn't stepped forward you would have. It's the same with terrorists. The communities that suffer the oppression will always produce a steady trickle of extremists who are prepared to do the unthinkable.

Like I said before, the alternative is genocide. You appear to advocate this when you say, "I am all for killing women and children if they provide support or cover for the terrorists among them." The logical conclusion of that attitude is to "nuke 'em back to the stone age."

I'm not alone in finding that attitude appalling, but it may explain why the US finds it necessary to bomb wedding parties and hospitals. Are you really saying that there is no higher ground? That there is nothing beyond violence as a solution to these problems?

You say, "This realization of futility is the defeat of terrorism. It is beginning to spread through-out the mideast. The terrorists are already defeated but they just haven't yet realized it. It is a futile endeavor."

Hmm. You say this in the face of the recent bombings in London, and after many months of mayhem in Iraq. Where is your evidence that the terrorists are feeling sad? I imagine Osama is quite happy with the way things are progressing.

I find your patronising attitude towards the citizens of Britain quite offensive. There is no great clamour here for individuals to be armed, even after recent events. Quite the opposite. We look over the pond and see the horrors that plague the US and quite sensibly wish to avoid a similar fate.

Tony Martin shot an unarmed intruder in cold blood without warning and tried to kill another. Martin's life was not under threat, and he acted with unnecessary violence. He had a history of violence himself. The tabloid press here may have trumpeted his cause, but he was dealt with correctly and fairly.

The situation in the US is different, because it seems that anyone can shoot anyone with the least provocation. If the perpetrator is black a weighty prison sentence awaits, if the perpetrator is rich and white perhaps a book deal and mini series will be the result. But seriously, in a culture where weapons are commonplace it makes sense to have laws that take account of that fact. In Britain we do not yet assume that every bad guy is armed.

I'd like to know where you get your crime statistics from? You do know that statistics in the UK are gathered separately for England and Wales, and Scotland? What crimes are you referring to? My government may be pulling the wool over my eyes here!

Taxes are gathered for the benefit of society as a whole. They pay for all sorts of things, not just for welfare. What is your alternative to some form of welfare? What happens to the disabled, the stupid, the lazy or the unfortunate? Can you guarantee that each of them will have a job? Are you content for them to litter the streets?

The USA debt hasn't been balanced in living memory. Or am I looking at the wrong web pages? You can get anything you want in life if you don't have to pay for it. I suppose that's one of the benefits of being the biggest economy in the world. Who's gonna come knocking at your door?

"Your idea of robbing from those who don't ned it and giving to those who do need it is communism."

Oh, please! First of all, every nation that taxes its citizens does so to redistribute wealth. Some of that goes to the needy. It makes sense to have some kind of safety net. But I await your description of the alternative strategy with interest.

Secondly, you really need to do some deeper thinking about communism before you try to sum it up so crudely.
 
Aug 8, 2005 at 7:00 PM Post #141 of 167
Quote:

The USA debt hasn't been balanced in living memory. Or am I looking at the wrong web pages? You can get anything you want in life if you don't have to pay for it. I suppose that's one of the benefits of being the biggest economy in the world. Who's gonna come knocking at your door


Quote:

The IRA was pro-active regardless of the fact that they knew they could not achieve their goals by violence alone. The purpose of the violence was to stimulate the British government to accept that re-unification was a valid political goal. The trouble began in 1969 as a response to the heavy handed policing carried out by the RUC and the Army against those who sought to protest (relatively) peacefully, and to protect against persecution of the Catholic minority by the Protestant majority. The Bloody Sunday murders were the start of it.


Quote:

No, government steals money from those who earn it and give ito those that did not earn it under (socialistic) government entitlements. Over half of the income taxes in the USA are paid for by less than 4 percent of the population. The money and services that government gives out hardly goes at all to the 4 percent who paid for most of them. You can't spin this unless you lie to yourself. Your idea of robbing from those who don't ned it and giving to those who do need it is communism (to each according to their need), and this will eventually destroy a nation.


Quote:

Art: Why is the crime rate rising faster in Europe than in the USA? London is more crime ridden than any USA city.


Best music thread ever.
 
Aug 9, 2005 at 4:59 AM Post #145 of 167
Quote:

Originally Posted by holeinmywallet
Wow..

Talk about relaxing behind the computer screen and underestimating the how difficult it is to actually go
out there and make new music. To me what you are doing is not beyond merely pointing out at the music/melodies that others have come up with, and mimicking, doing a quick write up of it.

If you asked composers of almost all genres(classical, jazz, rock, etc), they will tell you

one of the.. or probably THE most difficult to do of all is to come up something that is simple, melodic, and yet new. I wholeheartly agree!

You are way underestimating what it takes to actually do that.. The difficult of doing it actually can be explained in mathematics sense, if that'll help you. It certainly cannot be appreciated unless you actually have experience in composition. It's about creating something that is NEVER been heard by anyone before, and for that to be simple, melodic and yet new... it's bordering some really really really thin line. You can explain to me the basic principle of the theory of relativity briefly in less than thirty minutes, "well it's just nothing more than...", but it just took a looooooong time to be thought of. It really is much more difficult to come up with simpler new melody than long winded one. "Complex simplicity" as the title says.

An example of such work is the famous 'jaws theme' that everybody know from the Spielberg's film Jaws. The theme is played every time the shark appears. It is just two low notes in gradual and followed by abrupt screcendo, played by the low register of the double bass. Just two notes! John William tried more than fifty different combinations, including some complex sixty piece orchestra playing a really complex passage, but finally arrived at the two notes alternating/repeating while crescendoing. He murmured, "This is it!" I am sure you would have turned it down, simply because it's 'simple'. What a great musical theme that would have been for that film.



Art: The simplicity vs. complexity of a melody is not the issue.

The orchestration supporting the simple melody adds complexity - Jethro Tull can demonstrate some really nice and complex instrumental support to Anderson's simple melody line. The sung melody alone falls flat in many instances. The instrumental complexity very much adds tot he enjoyment of the sung melody.
 
Aug 9, 2005 at 9:22 AM Post #146 of 167
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zanth
How about we get back on topic ASAP or I'll just close up the thread. No politics folks. Against policy...


Thanks for the steer. I apologise for getting way off topic. I dunno what came over me.

confused.gif
 
Aug 9, 2005 at 9:44 AM Post #147 of 167
Dr Art.

The problem you have here is to empirically demonstrate that the music you are describing as complex is any more complex than other music you describe as simple.

Are you measuring sonic complexity? Harmonic complexity? Structural? Temporal? Density? Amplitude? What?

The truth is that if you know even a little bit about the real nature of music you know that complexity has very little to do with anything, and that complexity is actually more to do with the way things are heard than the way they are composed or recorded.

You hear complexity where simplicity exists because that's the kinda guy you are. I hear complexity in Brian Eno's "Sunday Afternoon" (one chord sixty minutes long) because that's the way my mind works. You don't have greater musical acuity than I do, we simply hear/assimilate/process things entirely differently.
 
Aug 9, 2005 at 2:10 PM Post #148 of 167
Quote:

Brian Eno's "Sunday Afternoon"


A work of art, by the way
smily_headphones1.gif


Peruriban: I think that you may be misinterpreting what Dr. Art is saying. Complexity to him is a single entity - not a vast number of different things. Tonal, harmonic, sonic structure - it's all melded TOGETHER into one thing called "complexity" (to me, at least). You cannot have a work that is sonically structured in a complex manner, but not have it be tonally advanced. With a more complex structure comes the necessity to have a greater harmonic complexity as well.

That is why The Clash - London Calling only contains the musicians playing in 3 different chords and 4/4 time signature, while Yes - Tales from Topographic Oceans explores many scales, a numerous amount of different chords, and plays in 2/4, 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, 3/8, 6/8, and 11/12 time signatures (to say the least, mind you -- there are also many simultaneous differences among the different musicians in terms of scales, feels, and time signatures).
 
Aug 9, 2005 at 2:44 PM Post #149 of 167
My fave simple complexity track is "'Round Midnight" by the Miles Davis Quintet. Right before 'Trane's first solo, everybody dives in with just two notes as the main theme - "DA DA, DA DA (solo drum riff) DA DAH, DAH(solo bass noodling)pause pause pause pause....DAAAAAAAAH (Trane's Solo!)" Miles made a career of the sounds of silence.
 
Aug 9, 2005 at 2:48 PM Post #150 of 167
Aman.

Perhaps I should wait for the good Dr to respond himself, but I'm not sure what you mean by "sonically structured in a complex manner" or how that relates to "tonally advanced".

It seems to me that we have a problem here, in that we are all dancing about architecture. It is surely very possible to have harmonic complexity with tonal simplicity. Orchestral music falls into that category, relative to the average Metallica track, for example.

The structure of music is temporal in nature, so perhaps the complexity exists there somehow.

If Dr Art is saying that his perception of music is one that includes the contemplation of the nature of the complexity of the data, then I have no problem with that. It doesn't matter where the complexity comes from, if he hears it, responds to it, and loves it, then more power to him.

But to extrapolate from that a musical theory that applies to us all, and includes spurious references to intellect and intelligence is just a step too far. By elevating some pieces, simply through a subjective analysis of their complexity, other pieces that have equal merit (the aforementioned Eno piece to mention one) are consigned to a lesser status. That's my objection.

"Sunday Afternoon" is a great example of less being more. The "complexity" of the piece comes at a much deeper level than most other pieces. The swirl of static harmonies becomes magnified by temporal extension. In my experience, most listeners actually begin to invent "complexity" that by objective measurement can hardly exist.

It is a fascinating piece, and it took me years to fully appreciate its importance.
 

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