[Vandal]

@Jake2 @darcman well I am just beginning to set up my audio rig again, having recently moved to Australia.

I've ordered a Pearl (Audiquest) 0.75m cable which is as modest as I can be at the moment. I've no experience with using LAN, but I'll try all the features and slowly report when I do.

Burn in won't be a problem because this will be used with my PC that does gaming, netflix, music - everything - it's my entertainment solution.

I've got two pairs of studio monitors, an Adam S3V which sound magnificent and a JBL LSR 306P II for more everyday use, which very nice for the price. Oh my XLRs are Mogami.

I shall definitely keep updating with some queries and some opinions.

 

[Lexxie]

What's the cheapest way to get good digital input into one of these Gustard DACs? I assume USB cable straight from a PC sounds bad?

 

[darcman]

What's the cheapest way to get good digital input into one of these Gustard DACs? I assume USB cable straight from a PC sounds bad?

My USB sounds awesome, but my USB chain has been tweaked considerably and is expensive. I use a NUC12i7, but that is also all M.2/SSD drives and put into a fanless case.
Honestly if you were thinking of getting an A26/R26 just try the lan. If you want more options maybe get a DDC. If you went DDC route, why not just get a Gustard U18.
Then with the U18 you could try I²S or whatever. The R26, A26, and U18 are all on sale now on Amazon.ca USB cables make a difference and can get very pricey. The one cheaper USB cable I have is the Gothic Audio Semperfi Outsider. I was also just reading about the Supra Excalibur USB that sounds promising for a budget type cable.

 

[Jake2]

What's the cheapest way to get good digital input into one of these Gustard DACs? I assume USB cable straight from a PC sounds bad?

Very few folk follow this thread, you’d get more responses over in the R26 or A26 threads, the R26 thread especially. And from experience the majority answer is likely to be LAN + cheap <$100 fibre media converters + cheap linear power supply(s) as cheapest way to get good sound…

USB can sound awesome but it depends a lot on the quality of the source and cable as Darcman notes.

 

[Vandal]

Liking the R26. I do not find it any less accurate or slow or even lacking details.

Early days though, maybe 8 hours.

 

[Jake2]

Liking the R26. I do not find it any less accurate or slow or even lacking details.

Early days though, maybe 8 hours.

Nice one, congrats. Like all the Gustard *26 DACs the R26 sounds good out of the box - and better after 100-200 hours or so - but even then has a lot of raw still untapped potential you can unlock progressively as funds allow... better source, digital cables, power, clocking etc. They scale really, really well.

 

[Vandal]

Nice one, congrats. Like all the Gustard *26 DACs the R26 sounds good out of the box - and better after 100-200 hours or so - but even then has a lot of raw still untapped potential you can unlock progressively as funds allow... better source, digital cables, power, clocking etc. They scale really, really well.

Thanks Jake, that is good to know. When you say better source, my PC is my source, how can I better that?

 

[Jake2]

Thanks Jake, that is good to know. When you say better source, my PC is my source, how can I better that?

Focussing on cleaning up and reclocking the USB output would be the thing to focus on for a start I reckon.

Then you could move onto power supply, lower noise and clocked network cards and USB cards.. google Jcat XE and pink faun cards, exotic stuff and priced accordingly. There's some much cheaper AliX cards I've seen reference to I'd consider too.

But back to USB filtration... Apparently this fibre optic USB convertor is the bees knees for its price per @Dandoudou . It has an oven controlled crystal oscillator (OCXO) on the receiver side which provides greater temporal precision similar to the fancy network cards I mention. And yes one would like to think clocking shouldn't matter for an asynchronous USB stream as the DAC rebuffers and reclocks it anyway, but it does. I'd get something like that if I were you.

I’m posting a major tweak that hugely improves the sound quality of the streamed sound.
It’s about FMCs that convert the DATA carried by USB packets to optical, and then back to electrical, in order to remove the electrical noise that will penetrate otherwise into the DAC. These converters work with SFP modules and fiber, the same way the FMCs that we are using to remove the noise from the Ethernet packets that we stream to the endpoint.

Last year, I noticed the existence of a such device, named Nocturnes, on the site of AfterDark. It’s pricey, and I could not find any feedback about it.
A few weeks ago, @FrankLeRouge told me on Forum hifi, a French language forum, that he uses USB optical converters between his streamer and his DDC that is connected to his DAC by I2S. (Franck is a passionate audiophile, and an electronician who built many audio devices over 35 years. This is a link to a picture of his listening room in which he built by himself all the devices of his 9 channel speakers system: http://forum-hifi.fr/attachment.php?aid=1785 )

Franck gave me the link of the Ali shop from which he bought his USB converters. He warned me not to buy any other model on Ali, neither cheaper nor pricier. The model that he uses being the only one that he tried, and can confirm that it works well. It has an OCXO clock on the receiver side.
I ordered the USB converters, and they cost me €317, including the shipping by Fedex. It’s about 25% of the price of Nocturnes, and its additional costs of shipping and custom fees.

https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/1005...t_main.41.21ef5e5bsYeIdz&gatewayAdapt=glo2fra

I received the converters last week.

How To Make Them Work

The transmitter should connect to the USB output of the streamer, which also powers it with 5 V through this port.
For the receiver, a good LPS with an output between 7.5 V to 10 V is necessary. I power mine with the 9 V output of a Keces P8.

The converters come with a blue fiber, and SFP modules from Nokia that do not sound good. They kill the sound.
I’m using mine with the Finisar SFP 1475 modules, with whom I get the best results. The Finisar AOC cable, also performs well.

I made many tests with these converters, I’ll report just a few.

LAN input of the Gustard R26 versus its USB and I2S ports (with the optical isolation)

My DAC, the Gustard R26, has a good built-in streamer that I don’t usually use. I get a more refined sound with my Rpi based external streamers, running GentooPlayer, and the Diretta streaming protocol.
Before receiving the USB optical isolation, I was getting the best results with the Holo Red, configured as a streamer, and its I2S output.
The Red is a versatile device that can be used both as a streamer (USB or I2S), and as a DDC.
The addition of the USB optical isolation to my streaming setup enhanced amazingly its sound quality, and changed the way that I’m using the Red.

I tested the USB isolation with my Allo USBridge Sig, streaming with Roon in bit-perfect mode.
On the Allo, I run RopieeeXL in order to hear the effect of the USB optical isolation without any improvement that GentooPlayer and Diretta might bring.

The setup was like this:

a. Mac Mini M1 > RAAT > R26
b. Mac Mini M1 > RAAT > Allo USBridge (RopieeeXL) > USB Optical isolation > USB > R26

With the optical isolation, the sound streamed to the USB port of the DAC was incredibly better. In the A/B comparisons, it was day and night, and I could clearly hear digital artifacts with the LAN input of the R26.
The difference perceived in sound quality was due to the higher level of noise reaching the DAC circuity with the built-in streamer of the R26.

Then I added the Red to the loop. To benefit from the USB optical isolation, I configured the Red as a DDC. The setup was like this:

Mac Mini M1 > RAAT > Allo USBridge Sig (RopieeeXL) > optical isolation > Red (configured as a DDC) > I2S > R26

The sound was improved again. It was clearly the best sound that I ever heard on my system! Much better than using the Red as a streamer.
The Red is just a more silent device when it is used as a DDC rather than a streamer that runs an OS, and processes the tracks.

I proceeded with the same tests with my Audio-GD DI-20HE. With it, the sound was of a similar grade of quality.

My Present Streaming Setup

The sound with GentooPlayer and Diretta remains more refined than with RopieeeXL, but as the optical isolation suppresses completely the noise of the streamer, the difference is small.
At the present, the USB optical isolation is fully integrated to my system in the following setup:

NUC (GentooPlayer, Diretta Host) > Diretta > Allo USBridge Sig (Diretta Target) > USB optical isolation > Holo Red > I2S > R26

 

[ali4ek]

When you say better source, my PC is my source, how can I better that?

I saw someone recommend with passion the combo LHY Audio OCK-2 (master clock 10 MHz) + Gustard U18 (DDC) specifically with R26.
You'd run a USB cable from your PC to the DDC (USB-USB), then I2S from DDC to R26 (I2S-I2S).
Additionally, OCK-2 connected to the DDC and EXT clock chosen on the DDC (BNC 50 Ohm - BNC 50 Ohm).

Basically, this with R26 instead of the A26:
https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/det...k-2-master-clock-2-master-clock-cables-combo/

 

[ericx85]

I saw someone recommend with passion the combo LHY Audio OCK-2 (master clock 10 MHz) + Gustard U18 (DDC) specifically with R26.
You'd run a USB cable from your PC to the DDC (USB-USB), then I2S from DDC to R26 (I2S-I2S).
Additionally, OCK-2 connected to the DDC and EXT clock chosen on the DDC (BNC 50 Ohm - BNC 50 Ohm).

Basically, this with R26 instead of the A26:
https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/det...k-2-master-clock-2-master-clock-cables-combo/

While I'm sure there's improvement. I feel like after that much money you're better off just getting a better dac? I won't argue against a DDC for any dac if you're using a PC as source however.

 

[ali4ek]

you're better off just getting a better dac?

If you could get better results - YES - in theory.

In practice though, in my opinion at least:

1) With any DAC, without a DDC, if using PC as your source, you'll be relying on that better DAC's USB input - not great (unlike I2S).
Basically, with any DAC, unless extremely high quality USB input, the USB to I2S conversion (and cleaning+reclocking) would be very nice to have.

2) The internal clock of the better DAC will likely be inferior to the dedicated master clock, even as affordable as OCK-2 (I've seen several reports of people selling Gustard C18 in favor of OCK-2 by the way)

One example:

Denafrips Venus II - using TCXO internally.
OCK-2 - using OCXO internally.

Venus II on the website is approx. $3,000 USD.
You would get an OCXO as of Terminator II, but that one is $6,650 USD (yes, other components are better as well, agreed, but still).

Google:
Which is better OCXO or TCXO?
OCXO is much more pricey then TCXO but it provides better stability and performance.
OCXO are mainly used where there is requirement of precise frequency, such as controlling radio transmitter frequency, cellular based stations and military communications equipment.

3) The incremental cost (+ cables, yes) is around $800 USD for the clock and $500 USD for the DDC. I don't see any options in the R26 + $1,300 USD range comparable (theoretically at least) to the above combo of the three

4) Just convenience (depends on who you ask, those loving the all-in-one solutions will call it inconvenience) of having separate DDC, clock, DAC.
Can be used, re-used etc. separately. E.g. you can upgrade the DAC, or DDC, so on and so forth. Finally, the clock has 6 outputs, all active simultaneously.
In case you want to feed more than one device, e.g., DAC and streamer or something.

 

[sajunky]

If you could get better results - YES - in theory.

In practice though, in my opinion at least:

1) With any DAC, without a DDC, if using PC as your source, you'll be relying on that better DAC's USB input - not great (unlike I2S).
Basically, with any DAC, unless extremely high quality USB input, the USB to I2S conversion (and cleaning+reclocking) would be very nice to have.

2) The internal clock of the better DAC will likely be inferior to the dedicated master clock, even as affordable as OCK-2 (I've seen several reports of people selling Gustard C18 in favor of OCK-2 by the way)

One example:

Denafrips Venus II - using TCXO internally.
OCK-2 - using OCXO internally.

Venus II on the website is approx. $3,000 USD.
You would get an OCXO as of Terminator II, but that one is $6,650 USD (yes, other components are better as well, agreed, but still).

Google:
Which is better OCXO or TCXO?
OCXO is much more pricey then TCXO but it provides better stability and performance.
OCXO are mainly used where there is requirement of precise frequency, such as controlling radio transmitter frequency, cellular based stations and military communications equipment.

3) The incremental cost (+ cables, yes) is around $800 USD for the clock and $500 USD for the DDC. I don't see any options in the R26 + $1,300 USD range comparable (theoretically at least) to the above combo of the three

4) Just convenience (depends on who you ask, those loving the all-in-one solutions will call it inconvenience) of having separate DDC, clock, DAC.
Can be used, re-used etc. separately. E.g. you can upgrade the DAC, or DDC, so on and so forth. Finally, the clock has 6 outputs, all active simultaneously.
In case you want to feed more than one device, e.g., DAC and streamer or something.

Get better DAC with the input for external clock and a separate hassle-free streamer. DAC combo with headphone amplifier is nice, but streamer technology is still immature. I am sure you don't want replace DAC/streamer combo after two years.

With a quality streamer you may avoid cost of DDC. When using USB port, if a streamer has good support for asynchronous transfers, connect external clock only to a DAC. If connecting clock to both brings improvement it means that there is problem with USB source.
When using I2S port, connect external clock to both.

A DAC-only Audio GD R-8 cost the same as Gustard, for few hundred bucks extra there is a version R-8HE with regenerative power supply. If you don't have power conditioning, this option is highly recommended. Adding external clock brings incremental improvement, but clean power for DAC is much more important.

 

[ali4ek]

Get better DAC with the input for external clock and a separate hassle-free streamer

Already there (the master clock input) in R26 and A26.
So technically you can avoid buying the DDC and connect directly via USB.
Or streamer to DAC.

The DDC is "only" $500 USD though...

The streamer is an amazing device, but it does not replace a PC as a source.
It'll do Tidal, Roon, Qobuz perfectly.

But if you simply want to work and listen to whatever, say Apple Music (or Tidal, Roon, Qobuz), then the streamer is not much use for that.

Overall - not arguing, many many options, other great DAC's, and most importantly - really diminishing returns once passing the $400-$500 dedicated DAC price point.
Marginal improvements for a lot of money. So much fun though!

 

[sajunky]

Already there (the master clock input) in R26 and A26.
So technically you can avoid buying the DDC and connect directly via USB.
Or streamer to DAC.

The DDC is "only" $500 USD though...

I see you don't understand functionality of these devices. It is now clear what is a cause of inconsistent assumptions in your previous post.

So keep in mind that technically Master Clock do not remove noise from your source connection and DDC main function is not for improving clock in your DAC, it can even degrade. This is a basic knowledge, you can start from this.

A good DDC like DI20HE costs $1000, it is worth to spend so much if you can afford $1600 DAC. If you can't avoid PC, then you don't really need streamer, so why pay extra for a combo with a streamer? In such case make sure that your DAC has galvanically isolated USB port that do not break asynchronous data delivery, so your DAC can directly use low jitter Internal oscilators without reclocking. In the best case scenario there is no added jitter on the direct USB connection. But galvanic isolation frequently breaks asynchronous transfers, so be careful what you want. Direct connection with no added jitter or galvanic isolation with added jitter? I want galvanic isolation with no added jitter, my choice.


.

 

[ali4ek]

I see you don't understand functionality of these devices. It is now clear what is a cause of inconsistent assumptions in your previous post.

A bunch of conflated apples and oranges statements, like "A good DDC like DI20HE costs $1000, it is worth to spend so much if you can afford $1600 DAC.".
See my post above, essentially DAC, DDC, and the master clock will do three different things, imo of course.
A $1,600 DAC will convert and reclock and clean internally, yes, but not as good as a DDC + master clock.

What makes sense spending on, or doesn't, is each individual's choice.

A similar question - similar answers:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/for-gustard-r26-which-bang-for-the-buck-ddc-or-lhy-ock-clock