Comparing DACs objectively

[Music Alchemist]

  Out of curiosity, what's the source for the entry level stax.

 
http://www.pricejapan.com/front/e_good_info.php?code=996&category=10
 
You would also need a voltage transformer (compatible with your country) or applicable power supply with negative polarity.

 

[arnyk]

  So I got a HiFimeDIY Sabre USB DAC ES9023, and pitted it against my Fiio E10 (non-K) (WM8741), and predictably, the volume levels were different.
 
Test setup: Computer USB -> DACs (lineout, 100% volume everywhere on the comp)-> Schiit SYS (for switching inputs instantly) -> Takstar Pro80 (I know, cheap stuff, but low enough impedance I don't get an amp coloring them)
 
So I decided to get clever, and brought out a multimeter and generated a 1khz sine wave... and at full power, the dacs were basically identical (AC Voltage).
 
However, the Sabre dac is audibly quite louder.  I suspect this has something to do with impedance, but I'd like to know how the heck to volume match other than doing it by ear.  (The Sabre seems to have more bass at the same volume level, but the voltage difference makes me curious.
 
I then just used my ears on the sine wave, and got a good match, but then the music was louder on the Sabre again...
 
So my question is how the heck to I volume match for switching (objectively and without specialized hardware)?

 
 
Volume  matching DACs does not require acoustical measurements because it is obviously true that if a pair of headphones receive the same signal at the same voltage from two different sources, the levels will be iherently matched.
 
Here are some simple tools for working with headphones and the like:
 

 
 
The two cables with banana plugs on them facilitate measuring and operating equipment at the same time. They allow tapping off a signal to apply to the UT61 DVM. The switches facilitate selecting either the L or R channel for measurements. The UT61 DVM is unusual in that is has exceptionally good frequency response over the audio band for a device in its price range (ca. $50)
 
The 3.5 mm TRS splitters assist in the same purpose. The 3.5 mm TRS plug with shrink wrapped objects attached to it are a 15 ohm dummy load for measuring the output impedance of headphone jacks.

 

[manywelps]

I just picked up a bifrost+asgard 2 off CL for $350.
 
Imagine my surprise when I checked the back and it was a G2 USB Uberfrost...
 
Now I have something to work with at least.

 

[inthere]

I have a Metric Halo ULN-8 ($5995) Pro audio interface, a Prism Orpheus ($4999) Pro Audio Interface, a Prism Lyra ($2500) pro audio interface, and several other pro audio interfaces. 2 years ago several engineers and I all tested the DACs in them and with null testing, all of them nulled. Now if 2 audio files null that means they are exactly the same. 
 
Imagine my disappointment when my friend's Schiit Modi nulled with my multi thousand dollar interfaces. So after screaming that null testing was bulls***t, we did a listening test and all failed to distinguish between the expensive DACs and the cheap ones. 
 
Cut to today and I come across this thread and realized that I had an Aune T1 mk2 TUBE DAC. So I fired up Logic Pro X and decided to do a null test. 
 
Now Aune claims that the tube in the T1 "flavors" the signal with whatever tube you're using. This was suddenly extremely exciting because getting an authentic tube sound in the digital realm is sort of a holy grail for me. 
 
 So I run off an 8 bar piano riff through a Schiit Fulla, a Prism Lyra, and the Aune T1, mk2:
 

 
 

The $79 Schiit Fulla and the $2500 Prism Lyra nulled  It was pretty much expected but damn, how disappointing. 
 
However, the AUNE T1 MK2 DIDN'T NULL. OMG. Not even CLOSE to nulling, full glorious piano with no breaking up. 
 
Next, I decided to swap out the Phillips E188CC-7308 tube and put in the stock Electro Harminix: 
 


THEY DIDN'T NULL EITHER!!!! It was a bit close though because it was the same amp, just a different tube, so audio was breaking up, coming in and out. 
 
Why am I so excited? 
 
Because now I can put an AUTHENTIC tube vibe on every single song I produce and mix now. If I want to "warm up" a *cold* digital sounding song, I can just render it with the T1. Other things i can use it for. I can send guitars though it, omg, the possibilities are endless. 
 
So, I can now say, all DACS are NOT the same, well, tube DACs are different if they work the same way as the T1. 

 

[Music Alchemist]

 
Nice. Now you just need to do this test with the Schiit Yggdrasil ($2,299), Totaldac d1-twelve (€28,500), TRINITY DAC (~$60,000), and MSB SELECT DAC ($89,950).

 
But really, are you sure that your testing tests the entirety of the sound produced by the DACs? For my own future testing, I want to measure the actual sound waves coming out of the headphones as well.

 

[inthere]

   
But really, are you sure that your testing tests the entirety of the sound produced by the DACs? For my own future testing, I want to measure the actual sound waves coming out of the headphones as well.

 
 No, this test was purely digital to analog conversion. What's coming out of analog outs (RCA jacks, headphone outs, line outs) was not factored. So if something is in the signal path before it gets to the amp, it can definitely change things. 
 
*edit* Of course, if there IS something in the signal path that's changing the sound it's actually introducing distortion/artifacts and is contrary to the main goal of a DAC which is crystal clear audio, isn't it?
 
Now if you're converting something, say flac to mp3, then all non-tube DACs are the same because it stays in the digital realm. The T1 is somehow able to introduce artifacts into the digital realm. 
 
Here are the files I recorded:
 
https://www.hightail.com/download/bXBaeFVRT01wcFZwdmNUQw

 

[Music Alchemist]

   No, this test was purely digital to analog conversion. What's coming out of analog outs (RCA jacks, headphone outs, line outs) was not factored. So if something is in the signal path before it gets to the amp, it can definitely change things. 
 
*edit* Of course, if there IS something in the signal path that's changing the sound it's actually introducing distortion/artifacts and is contrary to the main goal of a DAC which is crystal clear audio, isn't it?
 
Now if you're converting something, say flac to mp3, then all non-tube DACs are the same because it stays in the digital realm. The T1 is somehow able to introduce artifacts into the digital realm. 
 
Here are the files I recorded:
 
https://www.hightail.com/download/bXBaeFVRT01wcFZwdmNUQw

 
It's interesting how all the DAC designers talk about how since it's digital to analog conversion, their more expensive products do it better...but they're trying to sell them to us, so of course that isn't the most trustworthy source. I do like the descriptions on this page, though: http://www.msbtech.com/products/dacSelect.php

 

[arnyk]

   
It's interesting how all the DAC designers talk about how since it's digital to analog conversion, their more expensive products do it better...but they're trying to sell them to us, so of course that isn't the most trustworthy source. I do like the descriptions on this page, though: http://www.msbtech.com/products/dacSelect.php

MSB's gear is great audio jewelry, but if you think that everything has to be done up in cases milled from solid billet aluminum to sound good, well not so much.

 

[manywelps]

I actually have a T1 MK2.  Picked it up used off ebay.  Didn't even turn on.
 
Ebay seller refunded me and I'm trying to get Aune to RMA, they are **** at responding to emails.

 

[baadaq]

Hi, I need some nice cheap usb dac/amp (i own an msi gaming laptop, with all the "special gaming card an boosted volume" but has noise floor and every time i plug my phones it sound like a little ump), i was checking a random site specialized on specs it start with chan, but honestly i was surprised with all the snake oil around dacs an amps from that site, is just in another level from this site considering HF has a lot of that (plus the huge but huge "Geek Out" hype when the Geek pulse is already blowing headphone drivers ... ask lachlan) but getting back to the topic, it was in my mind the fiio e10k but the schiit looks impressive (still scared of schiit products from some incident in the past)

 

[arnyk]

  Hi, I need some nice cheap usb dac/amp (i own an msi gaming laptop, with all the "special gaming card an boosted volume" but has noise floor and every time i plug my phones it sound like a little ump), i was checking a random site specialized on specs it start with chan, but honestly i was surprised with all the snake oil around dacs an amps from that site, is just in another level from this site considering HF has a lot of that (plus the huge but huge "Geek Out" hype when the Geek pulse is already blowing headphone drivers ... ask lachlan) but getting back to the topic, it was in my mind the fiio e10k but the schiit looks impressive (still scared of schiit products from some incident in the past)

 
My experience with FIIO products has been good in general. The FIIO E10K has a good reputation and good reviews.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  Hi, I need some nice cheap usb dac/amp (i own an msi gaming laptop, with all the "special gaming card an boosted volume" but has noise floor and every time i plug my phones it sound like a little ump), i was checking a random site specialized on specs it start with chan, but honestly i was surprised with all the snake oil around dacs an amps from that site, is just in another level from this site considering HF has a lot of that (plus the huge but huge "Geek Out" hype when the Geek pulse is already blowing headphone drivers ... ask lachlan) but getting back to the topic, it was in my mind the fiio e10k but the schiit looks impressive (still scared of schiit products from some incident in the past)

 
I used to own a Schiit Fulla and used it with headphones with impedance ranging from 32 to 600 ohms! It's a great value.

 

[Steve Eddy]

I used to own a Schiit Fulla and used it with headphones with impedance ranging from 32 to 600 ohms! It's a great value.

Ha! For a moment there I thought you were Fulla Schiit. When did they release that?

se

 

[Music Alchemist]

Ha! For a moment there I thought you were Fulla Schiit. When did they release that?

se

 

 
December 4th, 2014. I always wondered whether the official name was Schiit Fulla or Fulla Schiit. I should ask them.

 

[Steve Eddy]

December 4th, 2014. I always wondered whether the official name was Schiit Fulla or Fulla Schiit. I should ask them.

I'm sure like every other product the company name comes first. But I'm just as sure they are playing on Fulla Schiit. Just like their advertising. Ape Schiit, some really good Schiit, etc. Jason is brilliant at marketing (he has his own marketing firm and was running that prior to Schiit). Really took some cojones to name the company Schiit. Been waiting for someone to come along with Phuuk.

se