[Earbones]

Not unless the streaming app developer adds this as a feature. But what would be the point? Just BT the phone to the theoretical Mojo2 and be done with it.

Or, if you want a single-device solution, buy a DAP that has support for the existing streaming services' apps.

Not sure you’re understanding the gist of my question, probably my fault… re-reading it, I wasn’t as clear as I could have been.

So we know that with Apple Music being run on Android OS, if an SD card reader is present, you have the option to download onto an SD card, and furthermore, if it is a wired connection, you can do so bit-perfectly. So you can download a 24/192 track onto the SD card, and then via the wired connection, play it back via the app when offline.

But how about an iOS device, like an iPhone, connected to an SD card reader… In this case, the theoretical Mojo 2 with SD card reader.

Can that work?

And furthermore, if it does, can you then disconnect the cable, connect with bluetooth, and control the downloaded music via the Apple Music app?

This would allow the theoretical Mojo 2 with SD card to play bit-perfect music downloaded from an app via wireless control.

I understand your statement that it would be simpler just to play music from the iPhone and stream it real-time to the theoretical Mojo 2 via Bluetooth, but this solution does not account for two things…

One, the fact that Bluetooth is not capable of streaming all high resolution music. LDAC maxes out at 24/96, while Apple Music has plenty of 24/192 tracks.

And two, even if one were okay with forgoing the 24/192 tracks and maxing out at 24/96, these are still large files… and anyone listening in a mobile capacity, say without a Wi-Fi connection, would have to choose between quickly depleting their phone’s internal storage, or quickly depleting their data plan.

 

[Neweymatt]

But how about an iOS device, like an iPhone, connected to an SD card reader… In this case, the theoretical Mojo 2 with SD card reader.

Can that work?

And furthermore, if it does, can you then disconnect the cable, connect with bluetooth, and control the downloaded music via the Apple Music app?

I really doubt this would be possible. First, you'd somehow need to get a cabled iPhone to recognise Mojo2 as a storage device, one that a streaming app would recognise as an offline storage location. Then, if you disconnected the cable, the streaming app would have to be able to access it's offline storage location over bluetooth... which none of them can do today without a lot of software changes.

And you've still got 2 devices to carry around. If you have to carry 2 devices, just make it as simple as possible while sounding the best it can.

 

[Earbones]

I really doubt this would be possible. First, you'd somehow need to get a cabled iPhone to recognise Mojo2 as a storage device, one that a streaming app would recognise as an offline storage location. Then, if you disconnected the cable, the streaming app would have to be able to access it's offline storage location over bluetooth... which none of them can do today without a lot of software changes.

And you've still got 2 devices to carry around. If you have to carry 2 devices, just make it as simple as possible while sounding the best it can.

Believe me, I get the simplicity point.

That said, I would submit that while DAPs are certainly simple on paper, having owned many, they are not. They are small-scale releases by niche companies running relatively ancient versions of Android, and that makes them just as buggy and prone to ridiculousness as that description would imply, when relying on streaming apps for your music. This is where some may cry “but Sony”. I have the ZX507 and it is every bit as buggy as devices from smaller companies, and also runs Android 9. They’re on 11 now. The most up-to-date Android in my DAP collection (and I believe of all DAPs currently produced) is my Fiio M11 Plus LTD, running 10.

I am constantly running into usage-killing bugs dealing with everything from simple playback to licensing of the downloaded music. The issues usually have a worst-case scenario solution of deleting the downloaded music and the app, reinstalling and re-downloading. But that still means if I’m at a cafe when the issue arises, I’m not listening to anything until I get home and fix things… And that process kills hours.

And it is not what I would consider a simpler solution than the relatively small aggravation of having to carry two devices instead of one… but insuring a perfect, nearly bug-free experience (current Apple iOS) and great sound quality.

That all said… if Apple Music on iOS can’t do what Apple Music on Android can do, the point is moot.

Perhaps the simplest solution is still two devices, though. Forgo the buggy ancient Android experience of a DAP, and just run a cheap Android phone running the latest software, and connect that to our theoretical Mojo 2 with SD card storage…

 

[Neweymatt]

That said, I would submit that while DAPs are certainly simple on paper, having owned many, they are not. They are small-scale releases by niche companies running relatively ancient versions of Android, and that makes them just as buggy and prone to ridiculousness as that description would imply, when relying on streaming apps for your music.

I am constantly running into usage-killing bugs dealing with everything from simple playback to licensing of the downloaded music. The issues usually have a worst-case scenario solution of deleting the downloaded music and the app, reinstalling and re-downloading. But that still means if I’m at a cafe when the issue arises, I’m not listening to anything until I get home and fix things… And that process kills hours.

No doubt, I'm on the record in the SR25 thread complaining about many of the little DAP's ...ahem... 'quirks'
And I dread the day the version of Android it is built on gets orphaned by AM & Tidal.

But I'm OK with those trade-offs using the SR25, considering the SQ I get from it, with Andro2020 in particular, vs the price I paid.

Mojo2 will have different trade-offs and it remains to be seen whether we consumers are prepared to live with them.

Forgo the buggy ancient Android experience of a DAP, and just run a cheap Android phone running the latest software, and connect that to our theoretical Mojo 2 with SD card storage…

Yep, I've definitely considered this as an alternative to a DAP, whether using said cheap Android phone with Mojo(2) or other portable DAC/amp.

 

[Earbones]

No doubt, I'm on the record in the SR25 thread complaining about many of the little DAP's ...ahem... 'quirks'
And I dread the day the version of Android it is built on gets orphaned by AM & Tidal.

But I'm OK with those trade-offs using the SR25, considering the SQ I get from it, with Andro2020 in particular, vs the price I paid.

I (very briefly) owned the SR25 as well. Great SQ, but I had issues getting things set up, so returned it within the month.

Funnily enough, the one DAP I own that has never given me any issues (yet) is the Fiio M11 Plus LTD… why funny? Because at the end of the day, I’m not that huge a fan of the sound. But it works perfectly. Dammit.

 

[Another Audiophile]

I (very briefly) owned the SR25 as well. Great SQ, but I had issues getting things set up, so returned it within the month.

Funnily enough, the one DAP I own that has never given me any issues (yet) is the Fiio M11 Plus LTD… why funny? Because at the end of the day, I’m not that huge a fan of the sound. But it works perfectly. Dammit.

I returned or sold any dap I owned but one. The Sony WM1A which works flawlessly if you want a unit to play your own music. My problem with modern daps is one. Android. If companies are serious about daps they should be developing their own software.

 

[Kentajalli]

Streaming sites, to protect their material, insist on their own apps (or authorized apps) to play their downloaded material.
this means, one must have an up to date device connected to internet to work, i.e Android, iOs Windows or similar.
So playing this kind of material in original quality, requires a streamer and a network-Dac (Poly, 2go ....) or if you are willing to get a lossy version, Bluetooth.
Easiest and cheapest is BT with a high-Res codec such as LDAC, but even that is not transparent enough for true 24/96 material on offer, after all it is lossy.
For on-the-go use one also needs a fast reliable internet to listen to 24/96 streams.
Now if we accept that listening to true 24/96 streams from internet, on-the-go is problematic , and be happy with a hi-res BT connection, then playing local files, stored on local storage causes no issues.
Be it an old version of Android based player, inhouse software .... would not cause any problems unless it is buggy.
I personally have never indulged in streaming sites, for the issues mentioned.
If I like a certain album, I just buy that one and play it off my storage.
For casual listening, standard quality Amazon music, youtube , spotify will do.

 

[Earbones]

My problem with modern daps is one. Android. If companies are serious about daps they should be developing their own software.

I agree with you about Android completely. Not bad when implemented in a modern phone, but these DAP manufacturers taking janky old versions and then modding it… terrible idea.

But developing their own software ain’t gonna happen, in my opinion. Remember the Windows phone? Few do. Microsoft, the second largest company in the world (by market capitalization) and operating systems is what they do… and they still couldn’t crack the problem of how to do a good bug-free mobile OS. Expecting a tiny audio company to make something as stable as iOS or (up to date) Android isn’t realistic. And if by some miracle they did, they would still have to convince all the streaming services to create an app for their OS.

I think the solution is somewhat simpler… They need to stop biting off more than they can chew. They are looking at the problem from the standpoint of “there are two mobile operating systems on the market right now, and iOS isn’t rentable, so we’ll mod Android”… Which, frankly, for a tiny niche audiophile company is only slightly less ridiculous than attempting to successfully mod iOS.

Android is an incredibly complex OS, even the older versions… and frankly, way, way, WAY overkill for what a DAP really needs to do.

Because DAPs do not need complex mobile operating systems. They need specialized media operating systems.

Why has nobody hit up Roku for instance? That would be far simpler to implement in a DAP, far more stable for the purpose, and probably way easier to license… I mean, those guy license to goddamn smart washing machines and refrigerators with screens. I don’t think there’s a native app for Apple Music or Qobuz, but you’d still have Amazon HD, Spotify and Tidal… and if nice, simple, (and most importantly) up to date Roku OS became the DAP defacto standard instead of Android, Qobuz would definitely make an app, and maybe even Apple Music would join the party (don’t hold your breath on the latter).

 

[Slater91]

I agree with you about Android completely. Not bad when implemented in a modern phone, but these DAP manufacturers taking janky old versions and then modding it… terrible idea.

But developing their own software ain’t gonna happen, in my opinion. Remember the Windows phone? Few do. Microsoft, the second largest company in the world (by market capitalization) and operating systems is what they do… and they still couldn’t crack the problem of how to do a good bug-free mobile OS. Expecting a tiny audio company to make something as stable as iOS or (up to date) Android isn’t realistic. And if by some miracle they did, they would still have to convince all the streaming services to create an app for their OS.

I think the solution is somewhat simpler… They need to stop biting off more than they can chew. They are looking at the problem from the standpoint of “there are two mobile operating systems on the market right now, and iOS isn’t rentable, so we’ll mod Android”… Which, frankly, for a tiny niche audiophile company is only slightly less ridiculous than attempting to successfully mod iOS.

Android is an incredibly complex OS, even the older versions… and frankly, way, way, WAY overkill for what a DAP really needs to do.

Because DAPs do not need complex mobile operating systems. They need specialized media operating systems.

Why has nobody hit up Roku for instance? That would be far simpler to implement in a DAP, far more stable for the purpose, and probably way easier to license… I mean, those guy license to goddamn smart washing machines and refrigerators with screens. I don’t think there’s a native app for Apple Music or Qobuz, but you’d still have Amazon HD, Spotify and Tidal… and if nice, simple, (and most importantly) up to date Roku OS became the DAP defacto standard instead of Android, Qobuz would definitely make an app, and maybe even Apple Music would join the party (don’t hold your breath on the latter).

I agree with you in principle, but there are a few things that need to be pointed out.
Windows Phone failed not because it was too difficult for Microsoft to develop it: in fact, the experience at the time was on par with that of iOS and in many ways superior to that of Android. The problem was that Microsoft is Microsoft, and therefore they thought that people would be begging to develop for their platform because of that. Reality, though, was quite different and the problem was that Microsoft's SDK was poor, the monetisation options on their store were ridiculous and there was no easy way to port apps from other platforms. Plus, they made some very dumb decisions when it comes to marketing and updating the platform, so that sealed its fate despite its undoubted qualities.
The thing with DAPs is that they are nowhere near the complexity of smartphones. Even once we take into account things like streaming, the OS DAPs need to use is still quite limited in scope (no phone, no cellular network, no camera, no third-party apps beyond a few ones that are approved and tested, etc...) and therefore its complexity stays relatively low. Sure, developing an OS is not an easy task by any means, but it's not an impossible one either. The comparison with Microsoft is therefore not necessary, in my opinion.

There are multiple free (as in FOSS) options: Linux, *BSD, a long list of RTOS... The choice is really vast. The problem is, the manufacturers should also convince the various streaming services to create apps for their platform, which is not going to happen for the largest ones. One option could be to create a single, possibly free as in freedom, open OS to be shared among all manufacturers and that could definitely put some steam in this effort, but honestly I don't see that happening any time soon: although this is literally the recipe that made Windows and Android successful, no manufacturer wants this because it would mean collaborating with each other and they simply won't do that, if history really is there to teach us anything.

 

[HiFiHawaii808]

Believe me, I get the simplicity point.

That said, I would submit that while DAPs are certainly simple on paper, having owned many, they are not. They are small-scale releases by niche companies running relatively ancient versions of Android, and that makes them just as buggy and prone to ridiculousness as that description would imply, when relying on streaming apps for your music. This is where some may cry “but Sony”. I have the ZX507 and it is every bit as buggy as devices from smaller companies, and also runs Android 9. They’re on 11 now. The most up-to-date Android in my DAP collection (and I believe of all DAPs currently produced) is my Fiio M11 Plus LTD, running 10.

I am constantly running into usage-killing bugs dealing with everything from simple playback to licensing of the downloaded music. The issues usually have a worst-case scenario solution of deleting the downloaded music and the app, reinstalling and re-downloading. But that still means if I’m at a cafe when the issue arises, I’m not listening to anything until I get home and fix things… And that process kills hours.

And it is not what I would consider a simpler solution than the relatively small aggravation of having to carry two devices instead of one… but insuring a perfect, nearly bug-free experience (current Apple iOS) and great sound quality.

That all said… if Apple Music on iOS can’t do what Apple Music on Android can do, the point is moot.

Perhaps the simplest solution is still two devices, though. Forgo the buggy ancient Android experience of a DAP, and just run a cheap Android phone running the latest software, and connect that to our theoretical Mojo 2 with SD card storage…

I couldn't disagree with you more. I won't buy anything but an Android DAP. The good ones are really good now. Fast and reliable. Far more reliable than my Mojo/Poly ever was. I had more dropped connections of my home network with it than all problems combined with any of my Android DAPs. And, streaming changes everything. I can rent all music and never have to worry about owning it again. That's a game changer.

Also, a Mojo connected to a smart phone is not portable and the wires are unbearably impossible to streamline. Couple that with the battery and charging issues and you have a pretty prehistoric user experience.

I would change my mind if Chord could pair my iPhone just like the Mojo does with the Poly. However, given the constantly changing designs, that is never going to happen. The next best alternative is for Chord to buy a DAP company and use their world class skills in industrial design and make a great Android DAp that pairs perfectly with the Mojo 2. That would be an interesting product.

 

[Mightygrey]

I would change my mind if Chord could pair my iPhone just like the Mojo does with the Poly. However, given the constantly changing designs, that is never going to happen. The next best alternative is for Chord to buy a DAP company and use their world class skills in industrial design and make a great Android DAp that pairs perfectly with the Mojo 2. That would be an interesting product.

A Shanling M0 Bluetack-ed to the top of the Mojo and connected by USB is an infinitely better choice for music playback than a Mojo/Poly.

 

[Hanesu]

Believe me, I get the simplicity point.

That said, I would submit that while DAPs are certainly simple on paper, having owned many, they are not. They are small-scale releases by niche companies running relatively ancient versions of Android, and that makes them just as buggy and prone to ridiculousness as that description would imply, when relying on streaming apps for your music. This is where some may cry “but Sony”. I have the ZX507 and it is every bit as buggy as devices from smaller companies, and also runs Android 9. They’re on 11 now. The most up-to-date Android in my DAP collection (and I believe of all DAPs currently produced) is my Fiio M11 Plus LTD, running 10.

I am constantly running into usage-killing bugs dealing with everything from simple playback to licensing of the downloaded music. The issues usually have a worst-case scenario solution of deleting the downloaded music and the app, reinstalling and re-downloading. But that still means if I’m at a cafe when the issue arises, I’m not listening to anything until I get home and fix things… And that process kills hours.

And it is not what I would consider a simpler solution than the relatively small aggravation of having to carry two devices instead of one… but insuring a perfect, nearly bug-free experience (current Apple iOS) and great sound quality.

That all said… if Apple Music on iOS can’t do what Apple Music on Android can do, the point is moot.

Perhaps the simplest solution is still two devices, though. Forgo the buggy ancient Android experience of a DAP, and just run a cheap Android phone running the latest software, and connect that to our theoretical Mojo 2 with SD card storage…

I can 100% confirm everything you write and have made exactly the same experiences with DAPs, especially if one is into streaming services, like myself.
As someone else here has written, too , I have sold almost all DAPs I have ever owned because of it.....

I have also owned the Mojo and tried out the concept of an exclusively wired DAC - but this wasn`t for me either, because it was maybe one of the most impractical solutions I have tried yet to get (admittedly great) sound quality "on the go" out of my phone.

And then I tried something that was unthinkable for me some years ago: bluetooth dongles (currently own the Go Blu and UP5) that can also be used wired for critical listening!
And must say - I have totally underestimated them for too long and can now say that they are almost the perfect solution for my needs.
They sound a lot better than their reputation in BT mode, I am not dependent on the "programming weaknesses" of small DAP companies for their user interfaces, and wired I get an equal sq as from a DAP.... in situations when I need it (sitting down in my arm chair, connecting to my iPad and enjoy browsing on a big screen while I can do critical listening ).

This is why I hope that Mojo 2 will also have BT or similar functions as Poly on board!

 

[Earbones]

I can 100% confirm everything you write and have made exactly the same experiences with DAPs, especially if one is into streaming services, like myself.
As someone else here has written, too , I have sold almost all DAPs I have ever owned because of it.....

I have also owned the Mojo and tried out the concept of an exclusively wired DAC - but this wasn`t for me either, because it was maybe one of the most impractical solutions I have tried yet to get (admittedly great) sound quality "on the go" out of my phone.

And then I tried something that was unthinkable for me some years ago: bluetooth dongles (currently own the Go Blu and UP5) that can also be used wired for critical listening!
And must say - I have totally underestimated them for too long and can now say that they are almost the perfect solution for my needs.
They sound a lot better than their reputation in BT mode, I am not dependent on the "programming weaknesses" of small DAP companies for their user interfaces, and wired I get an equal sq as from a DAP.... in situations when I need it (sit down in my arm chair, connect to my iPad and enjoy browsing on a big screen while I can do critical listening ).

This is why I hope that Mojo 2 will also have BT or similar functions as Poly on board!

Here’s hoping!

There are multiple free (as in FOSS) options: Linux, *BSD, a long list of RTOS... The choice is really vast. The problem is, the manufacturers should also convince the various streaming services to create apps for their platform, which is not going to happen for the largest ones. One option could be to create a single, possibly free as in freedom, open OS to be shared among all manufacturers and that could definitely put some steam in this effort, but honestly I don't see that happening any time soon: although this is literally the recipe that made Windows and Android successful, no manufacturer wants this because it would mean collaborating with each other and they simply won't do that, if history really is there to teach us anything.

Agreed re. Microsoft. The point I was making is that doing an OS from scratch is difficult, even for them.

And I completely agree with you regarding the challenges of getting the streaming services to create an app for a new OS were a DAP maker to actually get one off the ground… To be clear, I am not suggesting creating a new OS in place of Android… I actually said I don’t believe such an endeavor is feasible.

My suggestion was to throw out mobile operating systems entirely, and license a simple media operating system, such as Roku. Most of the streaming services (Tidal, Amazon, Spotify, Google and Sony) have apps for Roku, only Apple Music and Quobuz are missing. Roku is much easier to mod than Android, and they lease the license cheaply to pretty much anybody… I wasn’t kidding about the refrigerator with Roku. I think there’s even a toilet.

In any event, its a simple, easy to implement solution that really should be the standard instead of Android. For one thing, unlike Android, it’s far more hardware-reliant in terms of updates. Meaning if your device’s hardware is suitably future-proofed, you can update Roku to the latest version for years and years. Unlike Android…

I couldn't disagree with you more. I won't buy anything but an Android DAP. The good ones are really good now. Fast and reliable. Far more reliable than my Mojo/Poly ever was. I had more dropped connections of my home network with it than all problems combined with any of my Android DAPs. And, streaming changes everything. I can rent all music and never have to worry about owning it again. That's a game changer.

Also, a Mojo connected to a smart phone is not portable and the wires are unbearably impossible to streamline. Couple that with the battery and charging issues and you have a pretty prehistoric user experience.

I would change my mind if Chord could pair my iPhone just like the Mojo does with the Poly. However, given the constantly changing designs, that is never going to happen. The next best alternative is for Chord to buy a DAP company and use their world class skills in industrial design and make a great Android DAp that pairs perfectly with the Mojo 2. That would be an interesting product.

I have what I believe many consider the best current DAP in terms of a smooth, fast, bug-free Android experience… the Fiio M11 Plus LTD- running Android 10, Snapdragon 660, and yes, as you correctly say, it has been excellent so far. Lightyears ahead of what was considered a good Android experience just 2-3 years ago. I remember when I got my ZX507 and was like “Wow, Sony stuff just works”… comparing that buggy mess to the Plus LTD now is night and day. Unfortunately, I far prefer the sound of the ZX507 to the Plus LTD, ha ha. But I digress.

So we both agree that there is no doubt that Android DAPs can be very good these days. But even the most cutting-edge Android DAPs, like my Plus LTD, are borderline obsolete by phone standards. Again, my Plus LTD is running Android 10. But 12 dropped more than a month ago. And right around 13 is when we should begin to see bugs popping up in streaming service apps, due to less-than-perfect compatibility with older OS. God help my DAPs running 7 and 8. I already run into ocasionally issues with my DAPs running Android 9.

The point is, decent OS usability in DAPs doesn’t need to be so short-lived and problematic. And it only is because Android is overkill for what a DAP needs to do- it’s overly complex for a DAP’s simple requirements because it is a full-blown mobile operating system. The quickly diminishing compatibility between current versions of streaming apps and older Android isn’t because the apps are adding a ton of new code-heavy features. It’s because Android changes so dramatically that the streaming services need to code for that, rather than worry as much about backwards compatibility. Android literally makes massive changes between versions due to security upgrades for fear of foreign governments using phones to rig elections. Seriously. That’s the world of mobile operating systems, and it’s an absurd amount of overkill if all you need a device to do is connect to wifi and run a media app.

This is why I’m so hot on Roku or similar. The average TV is owned for ten years. So these media operating systems are basically updatable until the hardware can’t keep up. So you future-proof a device well enough, and you’re golden for years. And I can’t say this enough… Roku is a license whore. Whore, whore, whore. We could all be running absolutely up-to-the-minute versions of an incredibly stable and easily moddable OS with most major streaming services already onboard, running the latest versions of those apps.

Instead I’m feeling good that my “bleeding-edge” Android 10 Fiio is only obsolete by two whole versions, and my apps should be perfect for at least another year. I mean, come on…

And for the record, I’m not obsessed with Roku or anything. Any of these simple media operating systems would do. I mean, Amazon sells a ton of audiophile gear; they actually serve as the sole importer for several companies to the US market. Can you imagine if they essentially leased the guts of a Firestick to, say, HiBy? Who then modded it for bit-perfect sound and threw it in a case with a screen and storage? Game over. It would obliterate the Plus LTD, in terms of OS stability and future-proofing.

 

[waveSounds]

Judging by the hunger for the Mojo2, by the time of its official announcement is made it won't be the only one with a set of blue balls.

 

[Kentajalli]

A Shanling M0 Bluetack-ed to the top of the Mojo and connected by USB is an infinitely better choice for music playback than a Mojo/Poly.

Does M0 come with WiFi?
if not, it is not comparable to Poly.