[118900]

Yes, there is difference. If upsampling to DSD sounds better to you, then leave it on.
Though, use 64bit processing on + DSD64. Or 32 bit + DSD128, or 64bit + DSD128. Just not 32bit + DSD64 (might not hear so noticable effect).

Take a look at this post: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/watts-up.800264/page-34#post-13934433

There is explained why it sounds softer with upsampling to DSD.

take a look at this which also explains why you shouldn’t rely on software upscaling etc.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-mojo-dac-amp-☆★►faq-in-3rd-post-◄★☆.784602/post-12869423

 

[Julius Decimus]

take a look at this which also explains why you shouldn’t rely on software upscaling etc.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-mojo-dac-amp-☆★►faq-in-3rd-post-◄★☆.784602/post-12869423

Yes, i agree with this. I fully support what you guys are saying, and mister Watts of course as well when he advice not to do upsampling.

I am sure and see that without the upsampling it sounds most accurate. And most detailed.

Though....not always most "musical". So, it's not more accurate if you upsample to DSD, but i have a feeling if it wasn't the high battery consumption on the device that is doing the upsampling, 6 or 7 out of 10 persons would go with the DSD upsampling compared to not at all. This not only with the Mojo, but most DACs or DAPs. Is not better, just different .

 

[118900]

Yes, i agree with this. I fully support what you guys are saying, and mister Watts of course as well when he advice not to do upsampling.

I am sure and see that without the upsampling it sounds most accurate. And most detailed.

Though....not always most "musical". So, it's not more accurate if you upsample to DSD, but i have a feeling if it wasn't the high battery consumption on the device that is doing the upsampling, 6 or 7 out of 10 persons would go with the DSD upsampling compared to not at all. This not only with the Mojo, but most DACs or DAPs. Is not better, just different .

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-mojo-dac-amp-☆★►faq-in-3rd-post-◄★☆.784602/post-12441543

 

[v1rooz]

Thank all of you guys for explaination why not instead of simple do not do that. i have readed all of your posts and links included. Now i have a little bit knowledge about the problem.

 

[Julius Decimus]

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-mojo-dac-amp-☆★►faq-in-3rd-post-◄★☆.784602/post-12441543

Yes, i agree.

Making a DAC to sound in almost all situations good is whole different thing. One cannot not agree with explanations like these from mister Watts.

Something that almost no other designer/engineer/manufacturer is doing, as far as i know (not writing explanations like these).

And you know, it's just different. I am not saying it's better to upsample to DSD. But if you hear it as better sounding for you...why not. If so, you just enjoy your Mojo more, look at it that way. It's a win win.

The guys that are programming Neutron surely know what they are doing. Same as mister Watts i see them really passionate about their products. It is good software to do the upsampling. Yes, it's not like hardware build in probably (though, i have not had the chance to hear DAC that upsamples to DSD natively like these from PS audio for example). The other mobile player that can do this is Onkyo Audio player only ? And it does not support that wide variety of audio formats like Neutron. For example Onkyo can't play WMA files. So...from this point Neutron is best on mobile as i see it. It does everything you need from a audio player.

Ok, don't be angry, just giving my point of view.

 

[118900]

Yes, i agree.

Making a DAC to sound in almost all situations good is whole different thing. One cannot not agree with explanations like these from mister Watts.

Something that almost no other designer/engineer/manufacturer is doing, as far as i know (not writing explanations like these).

And you know, it's just different. I am not saying it's better to upsample to DSD. But if you hear it as better sounding for you...why not. If so, you just enjoy your Mojo more, look at it that way. It's a win win.

The guys that are programming Neutron surely know what they are doing. Same as mister Watts i see them really passionate about their products. It is good software to do the upsampling. Yes, it's not like hardware build in probably (though, i have not had the chance to hear DAC that upsamples to DSD natively like these from PS audio for example). The other mobile player that can do this is Onkyo Audio player only ? And it does not support that wide variety of audio formats like Neutron. For example Onkyo can't play WMA files. So...from this point Neutron is best on mobile as i see it. It does everything you need from a audio player.

Ok, don't be angry, just giving my point of view.

Not at all angry, I don’t have a personal stake in the matter, but considering you do read Rob’s own thread and use a mojo and thus subscribe (I assume) to his philosophy I’m just surprised that you advocate advice that contrasts with what he specifically says.

either way I agree that the important thing is what makes each listener happy.

 

[118900]

Thank all of you guys for explaination why not instead of simple do not do that. i have readed all of your posts and links included. Now i have a little bit knowledge about the problem.

I would suggest you also read the following post from Rob Watts and even follow the thread it’s posted on for even more information:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/watts-up.800264/post-12457933

 

[x RELIC x]

To add to the DoP discussion, it should be known that DoP doesn’t in any way alter a DSD file that is played back, nor does it convert to PCM. It’s just a way of transmitting DSD without drivers and was initially invented as a way to get DSD audio to work over USB since USB audio only recognized PCM bitstreams. If the DAC employs DoP then it ‘extracts‘ the DSD information bit for bit, and very much as ‘native’ DSD. The whole native DSD vs DoP is an unfortunate naming convention.

Also, the Mojo converts all DSD to PCM internally for the WTA upsampling, no matter how it is sent to the Mojo.

 

[118900]

To add to the DoP discussion, it should be known that DoP doesn’t in any way alter a DSD file that is played back, nor does it convert to PCM. It’s just a way of transmitting DSD without drivers and was initially invented as a way to get DSD audio to work over USB since USB audio only recognized PCM bitstreams. If the DAC employs DoP then it ‘extracts‘ the DSD information bit for bit, and very much as ‘native’ DSD. The whole native DSD vs DoP is an unfortunate naming convention.

Also, the Mojo converts all DSD to PCM internally for the internal upsampling, no matter how it is sent to the Mojo.

The last sentence is the most important one with regards to the mojo in the context of the original question I think.

As the mojo converts all DSD to PCM for upsampling and conversion to analogue there is little point in having a player convert a PCM file into a DSD file (with all the inherent problems of software conversion) to then have the mojo reconvert it to PCM again. I think Rob has clearly pointed out in several posts (including one that I linked) that files should be transmitted to the mojo as is to allow mojo’s superior capabilities to handle it.

but de gustibus and all that

 

[sebek]

On UAPP what would the most suitable setting be?

DSD to PCM
DoP
Native DSD

 

[Kentajalli]

For the record, as a long time user (and lover) of Neutron music player, I have to say that I have found Neutron to be well above any other Android player, when it comes to functionality , quality of its various DSP s.
Yet the only function that I have found that actually improved the sound is 4X oversampling - but only on lesser DACs. not on Mojo.
I occasionally use a mild eq on certain recordings that need it.
Any deviation from bit perfect to Mojo, to my ears, degrades fine detail on sound.
Now oversampling is different to outputting in an upsample way.
Neutron can do a smart CPU intensive oversampling (2X, 4X etc.) that actually tries to calculate the missing data.
Neutron can also do a dumb upsample, meaning outputting data at any frequency by simply padding it.
So I have tried, I am not guessing.

 

[Julius Decimus]

Not at all angry, I don’t have a personal stake in the matter, but considering you do read Rob’s own thread and use a mojo and thus subscribe (I assume) to his philosophy I’m just surprised that you advocate advice that contrasts with what he specifically says.

either way I agree that the important thing is what makes each listener happy.

Yes, ok. True, i support everything mister Watts says. I am fan and happy to see there is a person that explains so much things and why they are so. For sure my next DAC is going to be Chord one.

For the upsampling, look another point of view.

If somebody upsamples with Mojo, chances are he already knows the genreral advice is not to do it and just want to experiment if there is difference in sound. And there is. From your comments and mister Watts's + the other guys here i see that means whatever difference in sound there is, it is from the software that upsamples. And this is all true. But what i encountered is exactly what mister Watts says, it does sound softer with DSD.

There are other reasons i might hear it so, main one being i listen at volume levels most people would consider very loud. So i for sure hear all the details are better pronounced with no upsampling. When you listen loud, you do not always appreciate this meybe. Thats it.

Again to say, i am not saying you are wrong guys. Exactly the opposite, what is described for Mojo, exactly so works, i am happy about that.

 

[Julius Decimus]

On UAPP what would the most suitable setting be?

DSD to PCM
DoP
Native DSD

DoP.

This is setting that has effect only if you play DSD files, .dsf, .dff.

DSD to PCM is doing convertion. It works too, though i don't recommend it, because....that way UAPP is playing the DSD file converted to PCM. You don't want that. But you can, and it's good for DACs that are not supporting DSD streams at all. That way you can play the DSD files and listen to the music, it will work and it is better to have this option than not to have it in a music player.

Last time i tried playing .dsf file in UAPP, DoP was the one that worked best. It's also on Chord's site in Mojo's features page.

 

[v1rooz]

Hey guys i have some thoughs about that DSD upscalling discussion. With my he-400i i have to use equalizer just to lower a little high frequencies. No matter if i upscale file or not its sound the same (without eq), but when i use eq its sound completly different with upscalling. So i think upscalling make dsp effects like equalizer sounds better? different? and i found that text from neutron faq:

"

Feature: All to DSD​

As we all know the analog sound has limitless resolution but in digital world data is limited by the resolution of its digital representation. The lower resolution the less data can be passed to the digital-to-analog converter (DAC) for the accurate generation of analog sound.
Modern DACs are sophisticated devices which operate with 32-bit resolution and some oversampling DACs use 64-bit math to improve SNR even more. While in majority of cases these DACs accept 32-bit integer data which provides theoretical 192.66 dB SNR ratio there is still limitation imposed by the necessity to convert the floating point data of the audio engine to the integer output format of the DAC. This conversion is causing the quantization error when the audio data resolution has to be decreased, for example: audio engine operates with 64-bit resolution and we must output to the DAC in 32-bit integer format which requires truncation and effectively it is a source of the quantization error.
To lower quantization error within the perceivable range of the frequencies (for the human) we can employ the output in DSD format which is highly oversampled 1-bit digital representation of the audio data. Due to high oversampling ratio we do not truncate data bits and therefore deliver audio in its full resolution.
Neutron's audio engine is capable of output to DSD. If you employ Equalizer of other DSP effects and audio hardware supports at least DSD64 then consider using this opportunity to increase the quality of the final sound and to make it more pleasant to your ears.
"

What do you think about that

 

[Kentajalli]

Hey guys i have some thoughs about that DSD upscalling discussion. With my he-400i i have to use equalizer just to lower a little high frequencies. No matter if i upscale file or not its sound the same (without eq), but when i use eq its sound completly different with upscalling. So i think upscalling make dsp effects like equalizer sounds better? different? and i found that text from neutron faq:

"

Feature: All to DSD​

As we all know the analog sound has limitless resolution but in digital world data is limited by the resolution of its digital representation. The lower resolution the less data can be passed to the digital-to-analog converter (DAC) for the accurate generation of analog sound.
Modern DACs are sophisticated devices which operate with 32-bit resolution and some oversampling DACs use 64-bit math to improve SNR even more. While in majority of cases these DACs accept 32-bit integer data which provides theoretical 192.66 dB SNR ratio there is still limitation imposed by the necessity to convert the floating point data of the audio engine to the integer output format of the DAC. This conversion is causing the quantization error when the audio data resolution has to be decreased, for example: audio engine operates with 64-bit resolution and we must output to the DAC in 32-bit integer format which requires truncation and effectively it is a source of the quantization error.
To lower quantization error within the perceivable range of the frequencies (for the human) we can employ the output in DSD format which is highly oversampled 1-bit digital representation of the audio data. Due to high oversampling ratio we do not truncate data bits and therefore deliver audio in its full resolution.
Neutron's audio engine is capable of output to DSD. If you employ Equalizer of other DSP effects and audio hardware supports at least DSD64 then consider using this opportunity to increase the quality of the final sound and to make it more pleasant to your ears.
"

What do you think about that

Where is Mr. Watts when you need him.
He wiould bull***t that argument with a stroke of his keyboard.

I am no expert, nor knowledgeable enough to argue technical grey areas in that article. I just do away with as much software tinkering as I can, I trust Mojo to do its job that I paid for.
Ofcourse if it works for you, fantastic.