[Bla4444]

Hi everybody.
I find a very interesting and a little disturbing thread in headfi witch surprised me a lot. I am curious about how people think on this question.
A member write a very nice comparsion in witch he compare iphone headphone out to hugo, pha3 and others. The result is counfusing for me. Especially because his findings were affirmed by others, and there was not heavy oppositon.
Is it possible that iphone headphone out is as good as chord hugo?
If someone is interested it can be find under the :
"
So How Much DOES a DAC/Amp Improve iPhone Output - Some Experiments"
title.

 

[theveterans]

^ I still believe what Jason/Mike Moffat from Schiit had stated: In terms of sound improvement, DACs come after AMP and AMP comes after transducers.

Transducers of course make the greatest difference.

To me, DACs make a subtle / subconscious effect that it's only apparent over time and over many genres. It's part of the reason I don't upgrade to the TOTL DACs offered by companies. To me only, I find that the mid-fi DACs offer 98-100% of the goodness of their TOTL DACs. AMP (especially tube amps) in my experience make a prominent difference at the moment you press play.

 

[canthearyou]

I take every persons opinion on sound as exactly that, an opinion. The ONLY way to hear something is with your own ears.

 

[XVampireX]

Yeah dude, iPhone output is teh best, and you're totally in teh wrong hobby of things

 

[Bla4444]

If it is true it make thousands of post and hundreds of threads questionable here. I mean the whole source section is all about comparing, discribing dacs. There is alway an accordance about dragonfly red is a step up from iphone out. Now we have to realise that dfr is better than hogo? I understand that dacs are not soo important as the same dac can be seen in top ak players or in xduoo. This whole dac thing iis really confusing.

 

[chef8489]

Everbodys ears are different and can hear a different level of detail from source to source. If the difference is not much to you, great you just saved a bunch of money. Sometimes i wish i had never made that first step almost 20 years ago because if you have yhe ears to begin with, then the more time you spend learning and training your ears and brain, the more you hear. Now i cant even enjoy some of my favorite bands albums due to bad recordings. It can be a blessing yet a curse. I say ignorance can be bliss when it comes to audio and music.

 

[Bla4444]

Thank you for your replies.I am not far away from beliving this hobby is a big placebo. For me there was obvious differences between my hrt dsp and my dragonfly black, and my ifi idsd le sounded better for than both for na hour, (untill it worked). But there are so many confusing and opposit statement that i belive the differences can t be big for many. As you see the iphone seems not worst than hugo but many suggest dragonfly red is clearly better than iphone. By the rules the conventional logic dragonfly is much better than hugo and that way much much better than mojo... Errr... I am sure i have to spend more time with my music and less with my equipments.

 

[XVampireX]

Thank you for your replies.I am not far away from beliving this hobby is a big placebo. For me there was obvious differences between my hrt dsp and my dragonfly black, and my ifi idsd le sounded better for than both for na hour, (untill it worked). But there are so many confusing and opposit statement that i belive the differences can t be big for many. As you see the iphone seems not worst than hugo but many suggest dragonfly red is clearly better than iphone. By the rules the conventional logic dragonfly is much better than hugo and that way much much better than mojo... Errr... I am sure i have to spend more time with my music and less with my equipments.

If you believe that this hobby is a placebo than you should stop right about now, if you don't enjoy trying to find the best sound for yourself then it's definitely not for you, there is a good saying about this hobby "Enjoy the Music" if you're not enjoying it, then what's the point?

 

[knopi]

To be honest, I think Hugo V1 (V2 I did not hear) is good useful with some full size headphone, when I tried it with IEMs there was noticeable hiss so I guess it will not be good pairing with every (maybe not with most sensitive) IEMs. I also think that preamp section of the Hugo is weak point when I tried it with my speaker not good, the Brooklyn is in different league as regards using it has good preamp for example. So my conclusion depends what you will be use with Hugo but for my use it is not too.

Truth is I think iPhone is pretty good with IEMs, no or almost no hiss with most IEMs and sound is very fine, I would be happy to use only this with IEM. But for example one my friend also use some DAPs next to his iPhone and he told me that DAPs sound on bigger level which is good.

But this hobby is definitely not placebo, in this time overpriced yes but placebo really not (only in some unquality cases yes).

 

[Bla4444]

If you believe that this hobby is a placebo than you should stop right about now, if you don't enjoy trying to find the best sound for yourself then it's definitely not for you, there is a good saying about this hobby "Enjoy the Music" if you're not enjoying it, then what's the point?

I have several low, mid fi equipment, but if a top dac can t be much better than an iphone... It makes questions in me. I am into this hobby for several years and have lots of headphones, more than 60 but the nothing really high end by nowadays standard. I alway prefer variability on sound by changing headphones players and now dacs, and of course find the right synergy between them. I belived that there are real differences between dacs and amps, but the statements i have heard, and your replies both convince me to stay away from realy high end equipment. And yes you are right, that music enjoymemt matter after all.

 

[Bla4444]

Anyway this "placebo" world was not the best term for what i mean, and maybe it was unfortunately a little offending

 

[Music Alchemist]

The best thing you can do is do a controlled comparison with your own ears. (Instead of going from opinions online, which can range from "It sounds the same." to "It makes a huge difference.") Use a passive preamp / switcher like the Schiit SYS to rapidly switch between components. For reference, I have owned the Chord 2Qute (home system version of the Hugo) and many other DACs. But even for those who do hear a difference, it only makes sense to spend so much on a DAC when the rest of your system is fairly high-end. You can get by just fine with a cheap DAC.

 

[thefitz]

So a $2000 DAC sounds like a regular ol' iPhone, but the moment you switch to USB:
USB cables make my rig sound better!
I can hear jitter - it's more fatiguing!

The moment you switch to a DAP:
Three-figure price 3.5mm interconnects!
Leather cases change the sounds of DAPs!

The moment you have a proper headphone amp:
$300 cables!

The moment you get an HE-6:
I need a speaker amp!
High quality watts!

OK, I went off the rails there a little bit, but this stuff is amazing.

 

[Currawong]

What is most often missing from these comparisons is a list of music tracks used. An example I've often used before is that I like Van Halen. However, their recording quality is unfortunately quite poor (due to the choice of studio used) so I find it no better to listen to them on my home system with expensive headphones and supporting gear than I do in my car with its stock stereo. On the other hand, the well-recorded-and-mastered music of which I have quite a bit is vastly better when listened to through my main system.

So I believe that nobody's impression is wrong, but very dependent on their music, equipment and expectations.

 

[Malfunkt]

Older DACs I can tell the difference. I have an older iPod that isn't as clear but honestly I kind of like its slightly chunkier sound. Back in the '80s and '90s we used to spend a fortune on DACs and some of that older gear although imperfect is quite desirable. There is a reason producers sometimes want those old Akai MPC60, SP1200, Ensoniq or Emulator DACs - they have character.

But modern DACs we have the science and technology down. The DAC in the iPhone is very good and the matching amp is perfect for highend IEMs, easy to drive headphones. As I type this, I am listening to my D2000 outside in a rainstorm right off of my iPhone.

Recently I recorded the matched volume output of two modern DACs. Recording 24bit/192khz John Coltrane 'Blue Train' to 32bit floating point 192khz on a studio DAC.

There was absolutely no frequency differences between the two DACs as well as the original source waveform (as should be the case), no perceptible differences comparing short segments of the files back to back. And if there was, I wouldn't be able to tell you which is better. It wouldn't really matter. I bet I could resamplw these same files over 20 times and you wouldn't here a difference (especially using 24bit with its low noise floor).

I've had my ears tested and the results were very good for my age. Most of us can detect minute differences in dynamics. And even if that one cymbal sound is slightly different, it is so so minute that it is borderline OCD to be distracted by this. I can say, that you will hear the difference in headphone transducers. Put a dynamic, electrostat, and planar magnetic against each other there is plenty to distinguish. And even then, your preference will be somewhat subjective.

So ultimately, when it comes to DACs, I really do feel that the differences are vastly overstated and like some other audio gear the price can be inflated. Still, purchasing a DAC and amp for that matter can be more that it's sound. You can take into account features, build quality, visual design and other factors. It's like buying a high-end watch.

I still keep an open mind that perhaps there may be some unconscious or hard to detect effect that a better implemented DAC might have on our physiology/psychology - but that may be a bit of a stretch. As it is,I can enjoy my music without having to spend a small fortune. A friend of mine once had a 2-channel system that cost over 50k - it was incredible. But so is my cozy little headphone setup that totals less than $1200 invested. (Same friend 'downgraded' to a Focal studio monitor setup and put the rest towards a house!).

There is a lot of real science and engineering behind the gear and how we perceive sound. But people really underestimate the role that perception plays. It can go both ways. If you can relax a bit and don't worry about things too much, it's easy to enjoy the music.