[flyte3333]

what about the superior femtsecond clocks in the matrix vs the imac timing? surely a step up in this regard? i'm looking at this from all angles.

https://www.matrix-digi.com/en/products/314.html

From Rob:

“I have applied 2uS of jitter (that's 1000 times bigger than one normally gets from a source) on the inputs, and there is zero measured effects (and with Hugo 2 the measured noise floor is at -178 dB).”


So if you don’t believe his measurements, the only left to do is actually try the Matrix yourself and decide with your own ears.

You can ask Matrix if you can do a home trial. At worst, perhaps you need to pay return shipping yourself but trying is always best, when possible

 

[musickid]

with such measurements there would be no advantage then. it is just a process of going over the facts again.

 

[111MilesToGo]

Very interesting facts, findings and discussion! Good read. Thank you @Scrum92 for starting it.

A few questions, please, in particular to @dmance and @flyte3333:

My setup is: Laptop (HP Elitebook) USB out >>> Supra USB cable (1 m) >>> miniDSP USB B streamer optical out >>> Chord stock optical cable >>> Hugo 2 >>> AudioQuest RCA Yukon (1 m) SE >>> Violectric HPA V281 >>> Sennheiser HD800S or Beyer T1.2 (both balanced). All components are sitting on a shelf, using granite plates (leftovers from a previous loudspeaker setup) for isolation from vibrations (mostly footsteps, sometimes traffic...).

The improvement from putting in the optical step as compared to just running the laptop USB into the H2 was slight, but clearly audible to the better. Thank you, @flyte3333, that suggestion was yours. So I subscribe to the ”optical is benchmark“ statement at least for the time being.

What now? Let me ask, please. I suppose switched-mode power supplies are omni-present unless one knows to e.g. have a dedicated linear PS. In particular, laptop power supplies, but also the PS in my V281. Correct?

First thing to do: Move laptop and miniDSP away from H2 by making use of a long optical cable (Supra?). I had already planned on this step for a little while, needs buying a long optical cable.

Second: The H2 is sitting on a shelf side-by-side with the V281, so it‘s close to a switching power supply (correct?). Should I move the H2 away by making use of longer RCA cables, say like 2 m or more? I would like to ask here before having to buy such RCA cables.

Thanks in advance for your answers along this post and your suggestions.

 

[flyte3333]

First thing to do: Move laptop and miniDSP away from H2 by making use of a long optical cable (Supra?). I had already planned on this step for a little while, needs buying a long optical cable.

Hugo2 is very resilient to airborne RF, so I would (personally) keep all cables as short as possible, including USB and especially optical.

Second: The H2 is sitting on a shelf side-by-side with the V281, so it‘s close to a switching power supply (correct?). Should I move the H2 away by making use of longer RCA cables, say like 2 m or more? I would like to ask here before having to buy such RCA cables.

It is also highly recommended (by experts, not me) to always keep RCA cables as short as practicably possible.

To me, unless you hear audible humming/buzzing (ground loop issues) it sounds like your system is setup very nicely!

If you want to go closer to ideal, try running your laptop and Hugo2 off their batteries (disconnect their chargers) for critical listening. If you don’t hear any difference, just enjoy with their chargers plugged in.

 

[rkt31]

Very interesting facts, findings and discussion! Good read. Thank you @Scrum92 for starting it.

A few questions, please, in particular to @dmance and @flyte3333:

My setup is: Laptop (HP Elitebook) USB out >>> Supra USB cable (1 m) >>> miniDSP USB B streamer optical out >>> Chord stock optical cable >>> Hugo 2 >>> AudioQuest RCA Yukon (1 m) SE >>> Violectric HPA V281 >>> Sennheiser HD800S or Beyer T1.2 (both balanced). All components are sitting on a shelf, using granite plates (leftovers from a previous loudspeaker setup) for isolation from vibrations (mostly footsteps, sometimes traffic...).

The improvement from putting in the optical step as compared to just running the laptop USB into the H2 was slight, but clearly audible to the better. Thank you, @flyte3333, that suggestion was yours. So I subscribe to the ”optical is benchmark“ statement at least for the time being.

What now? Let me ask, please. I suppose switched-mode power supplies are omni-present unless one knows to e.g. have a dedicated linear PS. In particular, laptop power supplies, but also the PS in my V281. Correct?

First thing to do: Move laptop and miniDSP away from H2 by making use of a long optical cable (Supra?). I had already planned on this step for a little while, needs buying a long optical cable.

Second: The H2 is sitting on a shelf side-by-side with the V281, so it‘s close to a switching power supply (correct?). Should I move the H2 away by making use of longer RCA cables, say like 2 m or more? I would like to ask here before having to buy such RCA cables.

Thanks in advance for your answers along this post and your suggestions.

What you are using v281 amp with Hugo 2 and hd800 ? Do you know that v281 has very high gain stage to provide that extra power ? What volume setting you are using in v281 with hd800 ? I bet you won't even be going beyond 8'o clock position. It means you are wasting the clean output of Hugo 2 by unnecessary attenuating it in the v281 to few mv and then again jacking it up through the very high gain stage of v281.

 

[rkt31]

Very interesting facts, findings and discussion! Good read. Thank you @Scrum92 for starting it.

A few questions, please, in particular to @dmance and @flyte3333:

My setup is: Laptop (HP Elitebook) USB out >>> Supra USB cable (1 m) >>> miniDSP USB B streamer optical out >>> Chord stock optical cable >>> Hugo 2 >>> AudioQuest RCA Yukon (1 m) SE >>> Violectric HPA V281 >>> Sennheiser HD800S or Beyer T1.2 (both balanced). All components are sitting on a shelf, using granite plates (leftovers from a previous loudspeaker setup) for isolation from vibrations (mostly footsteps, sometimes traffic...).

The improvement from putting in the optical step as compared to just running the laptop USB into the H2 was slight, but clearly audible to the better. Thank you, @flyte3333, that suggestion was yours. So I subscribe to the ”optical is benchmark“ statement at least for the time being.

What now? Let me ask, please. I suppose switched-mode power supplies are omni-present unless one knows to e.g. have a dedicated linear PS. In particular, laptop power supplies, but also the PS in my V281. Correct?

First thing to do: Move laptop and miniDSP away from H2 by making use of a long optical cable (Supra?). I had already planned on this step for a little while, needs buying a long optical cable.

Second: The H2 is sitting on a shelf side-by-side with the V281, so it‘s close to a switching power supply (correct?). Should I move the H2 away by making use of longer RCA cables, say like 2 m or more? I would like to ask here before having to buy such RCA cables.

Thanks in advance for your answers along this post and your suggestions.

I would suggest you to use a digital source like xduoo x10t optical out directly into Hugo 2 without anything in between and also the hd800 directly into Hugo 2. This will everything lot more compact and elegant besides being lot more realistic and transparent sounding.

 

[musicday]

Can you share a screenshot here?

I couldn’t see it on their page.

If there is anything to be announced it will be done at CanJam NYC 15-16 February.

 

[111MilesToGo]

What you are using v281 amp with Hugo 2 and hd800 ? Do you know that v281 has very high gain stage to provide that extra power ? What volume setting you are using in v281 with hd800 ? I bet you won't even be going beyond 8'o clock position. It means you are wasting the clean output of Hugo 2 by unnecessary attenuating it in the v281 to few mv and then again jacking it up through the very high gain stage of v281.

Oh, I knew it was coming ... I was in fact contemplating whether to mention the V281 part here on this thread or not, people are just divided on ”amping the H2 or not“. I had the good opportunity to thoroughly audition the V281 with my H2 before buying it. My V281 is set for -6dB, and the volume pot is at 10 to 11 for nice listening (jazz, classical). Just a few words on what I find with V281: Transparency and imaging are not compromised at all or only to a negligible amount, depending on recording/mastering quality. On the positive side, authority in particular in the lower registers is greatly enhanced, and just a tad of warmth across the board is nicely added. Without the V281, the combination of H2 and HD800S at times can sound slightly too technical, even with good recordings. Marvelous micro and macro dynamics in this combo, too.

Additionally, quite some time after I got the V281, I found a good and open article on the web dealing with this question of amping the H2 or not. Unfortunately, cannot find it right now.

And I know that if one wants to amp the H2 / HD800S combo, it takes a top-tier tube amp. Out of budget currently... And just another step: TT2 with MScaler... far out of budget.

 

[Ta6ypeTka]

Talking about amping, H2, I'm for it.

I would recommend atleast trying using Woo Audio Wa8 as an amp with H2.

1. It's fancy. It won't be looking bleak and cheap standing near H2. It's brutal and fancy at the same time.
2. It's also powered by an internal battery.
3. It perfectly complements H2 in sound.

A little bit of imho about H2:
pros:
1. Crystal clear sound without any noises, that also contributes to -
2. Insane resolution and clarity and transparency of attenuations.
3. Crystal high frequency with an insane amount of air in it and insane separation.
4. Generally, superior instruments' separation and ease in "reading" and distinguishing them in the complex tracks with lots of instruments playing at once and -
5. Gigantic soundstage.
6. Good dynamics.
cons:
1. Dry sound. It could be warmer, while remaining the same clear and transparent.
2. Bleak vocals and some other mid frequency stuff.
3. Crystally-cold and unnaturally light tones. No "body", no depth in the instruments' tones.
4. Slightly accented high frequency (not a great amount increase, just a light accent). Combined with the same way-tuned hphones (with an accented hight frequency), it will be a slightly annoying issue.
5. "Digital" sound character. Feels like each small piece of sound is being fired by a machine gun.

What Wa8 does with
pros:
1-4. Nothing. No any noises added. Great tubes realization, they are really clear and transparent. Attenuations remain the same long and clear, instruments can be the same easily "read" and dustinguished.
5. Soundstage becomes slightly smaller, but the positioning's perception becomes even more natural.
6. That's the only real cons I can outline: dynamics become slightly worse. But just a little.
cons:
1. Sound becomes warm. Warm and dense.
2. Vocalists start singing. Singing live, not just being presented in the sound. However, they don't shout loud or cry, as it often happens when boosting the mid range. Mid frequency is getting increased in amount very slightly here compared to H2, but I can't say the resulting sound has an accented mid range.
3. Tones become naturally deep and even darkened. Just... amazingly natural.
4. Generally, as an amp, Wa8 perceptibly pushes high frequency backwards, but combined with H2, it results in a sightly anti-accented high frequency. However, it remains the same crystal, keeps the same amount of air n stuff. It doesn't felt like pushed backwards and obscure at all. Not a bit.
5. The sound is really felt like a smooth analogue flow.

Wa8 itself is a battery-powered (trans)portable tube dac-amp, so it can't really provide much amplification (used separately from H2, as a dac-amp, it can't power my Ether C Flow (H2+Wa8 does have enough power tho)). So you basically don't use Wa8 as an additional amp for more amplification power, but as a complemetary addition to the H2 sound.

 

[rkt31]

Oh, I knew it was coming ... I was in fact contemplating whether to mention the V281 part here on this thread or not, people are just divided on ”amping the H2 or not“. I had the good opportunity to thoroughly audition the V281 with my H2 before buying it. My V281 is set for -6dB, and the volume pot is at 10 to 11 for nice listening (jazz, classical). Just a few words on what I find with V281: Transparency and imaging are not compromised at all or only to a negligible amount, depending on recording/mastering quality. On the positive side, authority in particular in the lower registers is greatly enhanced, and just a tad of warmth across the board is nicely added. Without the V281, the combination of H2 and HD800S at times can sound slightly too technical, even with good recordings. Marvelous micro and macro dynamics in this combo, too.

Additionally, quite some time after I got the V281, I found a good and open article on the web dealing with this question of amping the H2 or not. Unfortunately, cannot find it right now.

And I know that if one wants to amp the H2 / HD800S combo, it takes a top-tier tube amp. Out of budget currently... And just another step: TT2 with MScaler... far out of budget.

In Hugo 2 + v281 price, you already missed tt2. Hd800 being 300 ohm and t1 600 ohm, these already require much less current for the same power, than 64ohm or 50ohm headphones, provided you have enough voltage which Hugo 2 has in plenty. So imho you don't need tt2 but still for that price you could get XLR out in tt2 and bit more juice for power hungry planars. Frankly speaking I still can't believe you use v281 at 11'o clock position. With hd800s, Hugo 2 set at 3v (or even 2v) 11'o clock on v281 will be too high. And if you are setting Hugo 2 below 2v, then there is no point of using external amp to just color the sound.

 

[111MilesToGo]

In Hugo 2 + v281 price, you already missed tt2. Hd800 being 300 ohm and t1 600 ohm, these already require much less current for the same power, than 64ohm or 50ohm headphones, provided you have enough voltage which Hugo 2 has in plenty. So imho you don't need tt2 but still for that price you could get XLR out in tt2 and bit more juice for power hungry planars.

For me, the H2 started out as a portable device, to be used at home and in the office. TT2 would have been home only. Then I got the V281 for home use. Thereafter, over time my habit developed towards using the H2 more and more at home only. So that proves how one singular decision in the beginning locks a person in one place... No re-thinking with every small or large change in habit for me!

Frankly speaking I still can't believe you use v281 at 11'o clock position. With hd800s, Hugo 2 set at 3v (or even 2v) 11'o clock on v281 will be too high. And if you are setting Hugo 2 below 2v, then there is no point of using external amp to just color the sound.

Well, no need to argue. It is as it is, H2 in desktop mode (fixed 3 V out), V281 at -6dB and 10 (more often) to 11 (seldom) o‘clock. And I cherish my hearing since decades, nothing overblown...

 

[rkt31]

Oh, I knew it was coming ... I was in fact contemplating whether to mention the V281 part here on this thread or not, people are just divided on ”amping the H2 or not“. I had the good opportunity to thoroughly audition the V281 with my H2 before buying it. My V281 is set for -6dB, and the volume pot is at 10 to 11 for nice listening (jazz, classical). Just a few words on what I find with V281: Transparency and imaging are not compromised at all or only to a negligible amount, depending on recording/mastering quality. On the positive side, authority in particular in the lower registers is greatly enhanced, and just a tad of warmth across the board is nicely added. Without the V281, the combination of H2 and HD800S at times can sound slightly too technical, even with good recordings. Marvelous micro and macro dynamics in this combo, too.

Additionally, quite some time after I got the V281, I found a good and open article on the web dealing with this question of amping the H2 or not. Unfortunately, cannot find it right now.

And I know that if one wants to amp the H2 / HD800S combo, it takes a top-tier tube amp. Out of budget currently... And just another step: TT2 with MScaler... far out of budget.

Your v281 has input sensitivity of 6dbu=1.55v. it has maximum power of 2.7w in 600 ohm which translates into whopping 40.25v into 600ohm. Assuming you use 11'o clock position it translates into 40.25x0.4= 16.1v (since v281 uses stepped attenuator, i take it as linear increment in resistance and 11'o clock as approximately 40% of full volume ). So do you think t1 will take 16.1v ? Now t1 has 102db per 1v sensitivity. So 16.1v translates into 102+20xlog(16.1/1) = 123db. So i don't think you would like your ear drums( or t1 drivers) to be torn apart with this kind of power. If at all you are using it at 11'o clock, you are using Hugo 2 at much much lower level, defeating any purpose of amp. Or if you are using v281 at 7to 8 o clock and Hugo 2 at 3v, then also you don't need an amp, you are just coloring the sound of Hugo 2. In any case you are degrading the Hugo 2 sound by heavy attenuation either in Hugo 2 or in v281.

 

[111MilesToGo]

Your v281 has input sensitivity of 6dbu=1.55v. it has maximum power of 2.7w in 600 ohm which translates into whopping 40.25v into 600ohm. Assuming you use 11'o clock position it translates into 40.25x0.4= 16.1v (since v281 uses stepped attenuator, i take it as linear increment in resistance and 11'o clock as approximately 40% of full volume ). So do you think hd800 will take 16.1v ? Now hd800 has 102db per 1v sensitivity. So 16.1v translates into 102+20xlog(16.1/1) = 124db. So i don't think you would like your ear drums( or hd800 drivers) to be torn apart with this kind of power. If at all you are using it at 11'o clock, you are using Hugo 2 at much much lower level, defeating any purpose of amp. Or if you are using v281 at 7to 8 o clock, then also you don't need an amp, you are just coloring the sound of Hugo 2. In any case you are degrading the Hugo 2 sound by heavy attenuation either in Hugo 2 or in v281.

Uhhh, this is getting serious. Although - maybe since? - my university time in physics (yeah, that included some electronics 101 and more) is distant past, it would be a nice exercise to go over your calculations and find the wrong premises or other bugs if any.

Anyway, take a look at my post one above yours - things are just the way they are.

 

[JaZZ]

Oh, I knew it was coming ... I was in fact contemplating whether to mention the V281 part here on this thread or not, people are just divided on ”amping the H2 or not“. I had the good opportunity to thoroughly audition the V281 with my H2 before buying it. My V281 is set for -6dB, and the volume pot is at 10 to 11 for nice listening (jazz, classical). Just a few words on what I find with V281: Transparency and imaging are not compromised at all or only to a negligible amount, depending on recording/mastering quality. On the positive side, authority in particular in the lower registers is greatly enhanced, and just a tad of warmth across the board is nicely added. Without the V281, the combination of H2 and HD800S at times can sound slightly too technical, even with good recordings. Marvelous micro and macro dynamics in this combo, too.

Additionally, quite some time after I got the V281, I found a good and open article on the web dealing with this question of amping the H2 or not. Unfortunately, cannot find it right now.

And I know that if one wants to amp the H2 / HD800S combo, it takes a top-tier tube amp. Out of budget currently... And just another step: TT2 with MScaler... far out of budget.

«If it sounds good, it is good!» A rule of thumb that has some merits. But sometimes it just misses the point, in that there may be better solutions for an even better result. In fact adding an amp to the Hugo₂ is a logical monstrosity – as already hinted by rkt31. You take the output signal from a DAC that you consider not good enough for your demands and lead it to another amplification stage with a complex array of electronics components, knowing (or being able to grasp) that no electronics component is 100% transparent and free of coloration. This in the hope that it will improve the signal. A logical impossiblilty. Well, there's still the hope that this configuration will at least provide a more solid drive for the dynamic load (I'm talking of the headphone). And you seem to see this hope confirmed by the sonic result – the keyword «authority» stands out.

Now this is exactly a confirmation of Rob's statement: «Some people like harmonic distortion.» He sometimes uses the term «phat» for the sound resulting from adding an amp to his products for driving headphones. I'm not just repeating his findings as a gospel, but have made my own experiments in the past (long before I was into Chord electronics), and it is no accident that I've landed with Chord electronics. What has convinced me apart from world-leading DAC technology is the concept of a signal path as direct as possible – for maximum transparency (see above). Now some people know better and find a recomplication of the signal path be the ultimate when it comes to sound quality.

The problem is that the resulting coloration can indeed make the sound subjectively more euphonic and spectacular. And particularly: more forgiving – to tonal flaws in the chain (thanks to the masking effect provided by the added harmonic distortion prone to make the sound richer and more colorful). Speaking of tonal flaws: They primarily address to the headphones with their inevitably nonlinear amplitude responses. The logical consequence of this insight is to use a headphone with a perfectly flat amplitude response for judging the quality of two signal-path variants. The inherent contradiction of the latter two points can be passably resolved with adequate equalizing of the headphone.

In short: For the comparison between direct path and detour via headphone amp you need to carefully equalize your headphone – individually for each of the two variants – to eliminate the tonal flaws that bother you beforehand.

From own experience I know what it takes to get the necessary «authority» from a headphone that may sound a bit thin out of the Hugo₂ and to make it counter the spectacular «phatness» of the amplifier route: Increase the low bass – something most headphones will benefit from.

I'm aware that this approach may be asking too much, given the appeal of amplifiers among audio enthusiasts and the «instant gratification» they may offer. My own experience has taught me to avoid them as much as I can. Note that it's less of an ideologic approach, but the result of extensive listening experience including comparisons under above premises.

 

[musickid]

And of course there is a proportion of us who copy those more experienced in the hope of reaching that golden spot. After 3 years on headfi i am just starting to make the big choices with enough confidence in my own knowledge base. My aim has always been to try and maximise the process of reproducing music as authentically as possible for the love of the music and nothing else. This musical journey started in March of 2017 when i heard hugo 1 through beyerdynamic dt880 600 ohm headphones and quickly came to the conclusion that there was something inherently wrong with the other hi end headphone amps and dacs i had auditioned.

The dt880 600 ohm remains one of my favourite all time headphones for comfort and SQ. At under £200 and from a philosophical viewpoint can one use a sub £200 headphone with a chord stack worth £7500? I'd love some feedback from everyone on this point.