[Triode User]

Haha I wish! Merely the rumours that there would be a ‘3Qute’ sometime in 2018

I thought you probably meant that!

 

[miketlse]

also i'd rather not be quoted if the post accompanying it does not add anything useful or light hearted in a positive manner. i stated that i believed h2 is the way to go for headphones (based on everything i've learnt due to its unrivalled transparency at its price point).

Don't worry, this is not intended as a 'dig' at you.
Rather it is a light-hearted cautionary reminder for all of us.
The following quote was brought to my attention in December, by one of my colleagues, who explained how it is often interpreted to relate to whether we receive 'feedback' about any communications that we make. It has alerted me to the importance of feedback, whenever I try and make any communication.
In the frame of social media, such as head-fi, if we receive no feedback about our posts, we are in the dark as to whether others understood what we posted, agree with our post, disagree with our post, or would like to know more about our views/thoughts/ideas.

There is a risk for all of us, that if we request only positive feedback, that we start on the route to only communicating with like-minded individuals.
Communicating with non-like minded individuals, can be a powerful way, to identify if we understand issues correctly ourselves (including do we understand the issues enough, to explain them in simple terms, to non-experts), plus if were wrong in our initial views, to possibly learn new facts/information/ideas.

[EDIT] : It is easy to believe the 'illusion'.
I see that @UELong liked the post, but this has made me wonder if his screen-reader software, was able to read the quote, that I added in the form of a jpg.
To help everyone who uses screen-readers, here is the quote in text format "The single biggest problem in communication, is the illusion that it has taken place - George Bernard Shaw."
This has made me wonder if everytime any of us add an image to a post, we should also try to add a simple sentence (or alt-text tag) that can be read by screen-readers, to describe the contents of the image.

 

[musickid]

i agree mike and when i say useful that also includes positive criticism or feedback that's fine by me. but i was quoted with a post that stated more derogatory comments about chord dacs. even i remember P=IV from school. i won't be associated with posts that claim a very fine piece of electronic engineering which dominates its market share in terms of SQ is deficient in more than one way with no real evidence at all...

 

[qafro]

Please can Hugo 2 drive these monitors?

I have not. I've only heard the Omega Super Alnico Monitors and the Compact Alnico Monitors. IIRC, @romaz had the 3i's (5" RS drivers) and preferred the super alnico's. I jumped right to the alnico's since I thought they would have more speed than the ferrite drivers on the RS5 and RS8 drivers, but that might be a good conversation to have with Louis (owner/craftsman at Omega).

In general, the extra ~5dB sensitivity would certainly make a difference, but obviously how a speaker sounds is way beyond a sensitivity spec. For example, the SAMs and CAMs are remarkably musical and resolving even as you lower the volume (this was a very pleasant surprise...just lovely) It would be very interesting to hear the 8XRS's to see how they sound as you the volume and congestion up and down.

 

[miketlse]

Please can Hugo 2 drive these monitors?

There have been some interesting posts about these monitors on both the Dave and the Hugo 2 threads. I was reading some of them today, and it would be nice to hear from any other Hugo 2 or Dave owners, who have tried direct driving speakers (although i realise that this may currently be a small select group).
Based on the feedback so far, the Hugo 2 is fine for driving those speakers in near-field configurations. If you want to fill large rooms with sound, at a high volume, then an amplifier is worth considering.
There is no consensus as to whether a sub-woofer is needed - this is partly related to the type of music that the poster prefers playing.

 

[ray-dude]

This performance is several orders of magnitude better than any other headphone amplifier

I continue to be shocked at how significant the audible difference is when you put any amp in the chain (I don't care what the topology or genealogy is of the amp, transparency goes off a cliff). If the built in amp isn't powerful enough for your headphones, you may get better overall performance with a different (even if inferior) set of headphones driven direct than you would with a superior headphone with another amp in the chain.

To give an illustrative numerical example, if the Hugo2 is a 10, and headphone A is a -2 and amp B is a -4, you're at a 4. If you have a Hugo2 and a headphone C that is a -4 with no amp, you're at a 6.

Stepping back a bit, the transparency is so crazy high with the Chord kit, that you really do have to evaluate the system as a whole, vs bring together pieces and assume that that 1+1+1 = 3. In my experience (esp. with BluDAVE and BluHugo2), everything outside the DAC is subtractive; the only question that you need to answer in your audition is how much. Yes, this has been a real whack upside the head, and I've been turning my system and how I evaluate new kit upside down in response to this whack (I'll be flying with my BluDAVE to Dallas in a couple weeks to audition a pair of speakers, and couple weeks ago I took my BluDAVE and Omegas to a local audio dealer to audition the Innuos Zenith digital streamer...there is no other way to really understand how things will play together!)

 

[ray-dude]

Please can Hugo 2 drive these monitors?

@qafro, I wrote about these combos in my Mojo vs Hugo2 vs DAVE and Blu2 reviews (see links in signature) I think the DAVE can very comfortably drive the Omega Super Alnico Monitors direct, and a sub is optional (nice to have, but I could live without it). Similarly no problem at all driving the Omega Compact Alnico Monitors direct, but they are thin enough on the low end that I'd want to get a sub paired with them (I would recommend a fast low distortion sub...I use a JL Audio f112v2, but an e110 or something similar would be fine I think)

For the Hugo2, for the right music, it is very comfortable driving both the SAMs and CAMs. If music gets aggressively congested (complex orchestral pieces for example), I have heard a flattening of the sound stage, but that is for more aggressive passages. In my 20x25 room, the Hugo2 drives the SAMs and CAMs to a comfortable level, but it is a quiet room/neighborhood and I'm not driving to head banging levels, and the Hugo2 is at its limit on volume. For near field, it gets plenty loud, and I think the Omega's near field driven by the Hugo2/DAVE are absolutely incredible (insane imaging and detail). CAMs on a desktop with a Hugo2 in near field with a small sub under the desk would be a near ideal listening experience for me.

My advice to people wanting to drive Omegas directly from a Hugo2 has been to get a baby amp (like the Bantam Gold or the upcoming Massdrop THX TAA headphone amp) and drop it in when you want to listen to more aggressive music or at more aggressive volumes, but leave it driven direct most of the time to really enjoy the magic the combination can deliver. @Doody, you want to share you experience with your H2 driving your CAMs?

 

[Doody]

Tag I'm it!

I listen to a pair of Omega CAMs at my standing desk driven by a Hugo2. With that sort of 3' to 4' equilateral triangle, it's plenty friggin' loud.

When I'm siting 10' away on my chair opposite the desk, I can hit the limits. The separation starts to fall apart as the H2 is being tasked - for complicated and over-produced music. Solo piano, jazz trio, minimally-mixed stuff is no problemo.

I'm a bass player and a low end person. I'm working on a sub solution. Moving to a bigger cabinet isn't that desirable since these things are on my desk. I'll almost certainly end up with an Omega sub, but front firing instead of down. I definitely couldn't do the CAMs without a sub. I have not heard the SAMs or any of Louis' other models, so can't comment there.

FWIW, this setup is replacing an old pair of Meridian DSP6000s, so it's a pretty radical departure. Other than the low end kick - fixable - I'm loving it. I do miss the 8 low end drivers right now, though!

Just one boy's opinion. YMMV!

Xoxo,
Doody

 

[elviscaprice]

@qafro

My advice to people wanting to drive Omegas directly from a Hugo2 has been to get a baby amp (like the Bantam Gold or the upcoming Massdrop THX TAA headphone amp) and drop it in when you want to listen to more aggressive music or at more aggressive volumes, but leave it driven direct most of the time to really enjoy the magic the combination can deliver. @Doody, you want to share you experience with your H2 driving your CAMs?

I agree for the most part.
I tried the Bantam Gold with my 2Qute and Omega Super 8XRS. Save your money. It wasn't even close, the 2Qute direct had far better/resolving SQ. I wouldn't recommend any amp for the Hugo 2, if the 2Qute is sufficient for my use. Better to pair with the speakers without any external amp/pre-amp. Highly recommend the Omega 8XRS as was recommended to me by Louis (designer/owner).

 

[doraymon]

The answer is here
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...official-thread.831345/page-676#post-13968609

Thanks maye

The answer is here
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/cho...official-thread.831345/page-676#post-13968609

got it thanks.
But I don’t think I’m going to get extra modules.
The Hugo is already big enough to carry around...

 

[ray-dude]

I agree for the most part.
I tried the Bantam Gold with my 2Qute and Omega Super 8XRS. Save your money. It wasn't even close, the 2Qute direct had far better/resolving SQ. I wouldn't recommend any amp for the Hugo 2, if the 2Qute is sufficient for my use. Better to pair with the speakers without any external amp/pre-amp. Highly recommend the Omega 8XRS as was recommended to me by Louis (designer/owner).

I 100% agree. In another forum, I mentioned that the improvement in going direct to the Omegas is so profound that I would change the music I listen to to be able to hear it that way and not need an amp.

My recommendation for a baby amp is in case there is music you want to listen to that the Hugo2 can’t quite drive. For me, that was less than 5% of my typical test tracks, so pretty rare.

Direct is MUCH better than any amp I’ve ever heard, by a crazy margin.

 

[Christer]

The benefits of super-caps does depend entirely upon the application - Dave would not benefit at all, as the PSU has ultra low impedance and can deliver more current than the OP stage can deliver. And then it's really with driving 8 ohm loads, such as speakers directly when super caps are useful - assuming that the OP stage is not limited by the PSU. this actually is an extraordinarily complex subject - the interaction between the PSU and the amplifier, and the resulting performance.

No doubt Christer you will try to twist my comments to suit whatever warped agenda you are playing at. To state that Hugo 2 has a compromised output stage is a complete travesty of the truth; Hugo 2, together with Dave, has the most advanced and sophisticated analogue topology available today at any price, and you can see that reflected in the measurements. So called high end headphone amps are characterised by extremely poor distortion and noise, with high output impedance. The addition of extra analogue stages will of course massively compromise transparency and that is completely inescapable, as every passive component, soldered joints, wire, and active components are audible.

Now I have stated this many times before and will re-state it - if a headphone is connected, and for Dave the volume is below +4 (+7 BluDave) it will not clip nor distort - ever. For Hugo 2, so long as volume is not white, it will not distort or clip - ever. Moreover, distortion will not increase significantly at any level so long as volume levels are kept to the levels discussed. This performance is several orders of magnitude better than any other headphone amplifier; indeed when I first started designing headphone amps, I was shocked at the appalling technical performance of high end headphone amps.

But of course facts and reality have no bearing on your desire to throw grenades onto Chord threads.

Wow that was quite a strong and very direct personal attack.
It was not my intention to hurt your feelings in any way.

I really must have ...... you off this time around?

Anyway, let's make it very clear once again: I am neither "throwing grenades nor on a warped agenda".

I simply don't understand where you get that from?

I am asking maybe silly questions at times .But I am doing so entirely in search of correct information.

And straight from the horses mouth is where I would expect to get the most correct information.
But I am obviously putting my questions in a way that almost always makes you take offence instead.

Unlike you my technical knowledge is VERY limited and I have admitted so several times.

What I am doing, is both telling things as I hear them and ask questions accordingly, because like you,I am truly dedicated to the very closest approach to live acoustic music.
Moreover I have both reported clearly, openly and repeatedly here that HUGO 2 is a very good portable DAC.

And even more often I have said here that I consider DAVE one of the very best on the market and the combo DAVE/BLU SOTA as recently as in the post you are quoting now.
What I said this time was that with difficult to drive headphones like Susvara there is simply NOT enough "juice" to use the slang term, from DAVE/BLU directly and with some of my test tracks of large scale classical non compressed hi res material.

Is reporting that, really such a big sin???

Are your toes really that sensitive?

I am not the only one who has experienced the problems in question.
I know dealers mainly do so for purely commercial reasons, because they want to sell you as much stuff as possible. But I am sure you are also aware that most dealers and some owners with similar tastes in music as me also report similar problems.
There ARE imho,some very difficult to drive but also VERY GOOD planar headphones where DAVE/BLU needs a bit of help.
In fact, both places where I have so far,auditioned DAVE/BLU, quite strongly recommended a separate headphone amp in combination with difficult to drive planar headphones and large scale complex and non compressed symphonic material.
Why combine DAVE/BLU with anything but the very best headphones?
Transparency all the way is what I am striving for.
My quote regarding HUGO 2's output stage which obviously irritated you a lot, was actually only quoting @romaz who was the one who initally said so in an earlier post.
Maybe you can discuss it with him when you meet him?
I was merely quoting him.
Back on DAVE/BLU direct and difficult to drive planars, volume needed at my sessions was around +2+4 and clipping and audible distortion was a recurring problem at big climaxes especially with the non compressed full dynamic range BIS recording of Rachmaninov's 2nd symphony.
But with for example the WA 33 connected there was a bit more bloom/coloration added, but no problems at climaxes.
Still basically SOTA SQ to my ears but without the clipping.
In fact at crucial climax points clearly closer to how things actually sounded live in the hall.
Isn't that what we are striving for?
The problem was NOT the headphones.

I would of course have been very happy if an extra headphone amp had not been needed at all. But unfortunately it was. And I would rather accept a wee bit of colouration than audible clipping at climaxes.
Hence my quote "with a little bit of help from a friend".
But what if a Quetest and a future separate M-scaler might be the combo that will stop me moaning about little things like effortless climaxes?
What if it would deliver me both enough transparency at pppp levels up to mf AND the effortless fff-ffff climaxes I am used to live and via my 900watts amp back home?
The best possible SQ at reasonable cost is the only "agenda" I am on.
And I wouldn't post here at all if I did not like the sound of your Dacs.
I never bother with mediocre stuff and don't post or comment on many dac threads here because they don't even come close to my needs.
Your DACs on the other hand do, but leave room for some questions now and then.
"Nuff said" for now.
But Quetest is on my auditioning list for sure.
PS:Let's just hope Chord doesn't incur a specific buying ban on me personally if the above combo fits my needs and at prices I am willing to pay..
Cheers Christer

 

[Christer]

I asked Rob about this whole issue and he and others explained very slowly and using easy to understand words (for me as I'm a bit simple) and a link to a power/current/etc table was put on this thread only a short while ago. Did you not bother to read these posts?

Sorry I must have missed those.But I saw the power /current table in a response to my recent post that is creating quite a furore again..
I don't always read every post here.
And sometimes when I see some posters here "being all over the place with no clear view in sight " I post a response when it would maybe have been wiser not do so?
Mea culpa

 

[x RELIC x]

@Christer, I believe your assertion that the "output is compromised" is the issue. The Susvara is an outlier to the vast majority of headphones out there with 83dB/mW SPL sensitivity. That’s even less sensitive than the Alnico speakers discussed recently. Does that make the Hugo 2’s output compromised? Nope. It just means the Susvara is very difficult to drive, much more so than every other headphone, except perhaps the HE-6.

Also, what volumes do you listen at? By the numbers the Susvara needs 5.49Vrms / 91.5mA / 502.34mW to reach 110dB. Now if your average listening range is 95dB on high dynamic range orchestra pieces then I can understand how loud dynamic passages that may reach peaks of 110+ dB would cause issues for you with the Susvara as that’s close to the limits of the Hugo for a 60 Ohm load.

In the end I can see your point for your specific wanted scenario - a $6000 very difficult to drive headphone - but to say the output of the Hugo2 output is compromised in a public forum is very misleading regarding the capabilities of the Hugo2 with 99.9% of headphones. That’s where you get backlash.

 

[musickid]

"But I guess many here won't play music complex enough to hear any differences anyway".