[GuiltyRocker]

My main draw/curiosity was due to their exceptional attention to engineering aspects of design (dedicated power supplies, shielding, etc.).
At the same time the user interface is simply appalling (just try to adjust volume), the silly display is beyond useless.
Maybe they do achieve a mind-blowingly low noise level, but who cares if the sound they produce is not a music, but a "technically-accurate" representation of bits, or whatever other non-sensical criteria you want to use.

Funny how you can't find the real specs of these devices anywhere, their site is vague and everyone knows they R2R DACs are noisy, they may use a computer to try to remove the non- linearities and the fact that the resistors are never the same no matter how low the discrepancies, they are inherently flawed.

 

[ecwl]

Funny how you can't find the real specs of these devices anywhere, their site is vague and everyone knows they R2R DACs are noisy, they may use a computer to try to remove the non- linearities and the fact that the resistors are never the same no matter how low the discrepancies, they are inherently flawed.

I think old MSB DAC measurements from stereophile looks pretty good. Mostly because stereophile rarely measures nonlinearity. But hifi news does. And yeah, MSB Premier measurements have great jitter rejection but the graph speaks for itself on linearity.
https://www.hifinews.com/content/msb-premierpowerbase-modular-dac-lab-report
Because my friend doesn’t have a preamp and uses digital volume control, you can hear this at certain volume settings.

 

[chelseafc]

I think old MSB DAC measurements from stereophile looks pretty good. Mostly because stereophile rarely measures nonlinearity. But hifi news does. And yeah, MSB Premier measurements have great jitter rejection but the graph speaks for itself on linearity.
https://www.hifinews.com/content/msb-premierpowerbase-modular-dac-lab-report
Because my friend doesn’t have a preamp and uses digital volume control, you can hear this at certain volume settings

I stopped paying attention to measurements long time ago, leave it to audiosciencereview.com

 

[ecwl]

I stopped paying attention to measurements long time ago, leave it to audiosciencereview.com

Fair enough. I think because all engineering is about compromises, different designers optimize for different parameters that they believe are sonically relevant. So you can almost always go online to find some measurement to justify why your favorite DAC sounds better. It can become silly.

On the other hand, most measureable things are audible from my humble experience. Maybe it’s psychological. I saw the measurement so I assume that’s why I hear what I hear. Not sure. But I would never buy a product based on measurements alone. They’re too easy to game.

 

[chelseafc]

Fair enough. I think because all engineering is about compromises, different designers optimize for different parameters that they believe are sonically relevant. So you can almost always go online to find some measurement to justify why your favorite DAC sounds better. It can become silly.

On the other hand, most measureable things are audible from my humble experience. Maybe it’s psychological. I saw the measurement so I assume that’s why I hear what I hear. Not sure. But I would never buy a product based on measurements alone. They’re too easy to game.

A lot of it has to do with confirmation bias.
There is nothing wrong with pointing to a favorable measurements of a piece that you purchased or liked based on its sonic performance.
Many like tube sound which measures terribly and that is ok.
But there is a sizable population of audiophiles who select equipment based on measurements, which is silly.

 

[GuiltyRocker]

I stopped paying attention to measurements long time ago, leave it to audiosciencereview.com

Oh I don't care either, but if you are going around claiming fantastic specs, then we need to see those specs.

 

[The Jester]

Standard measurements are vital to establish a standard of quality, once they go beyond the measured thresholds of human hearing there’s little point in going any further, if two items measure identically but are perceived to sound different somehow then more things need to be measured, but with what ?
Our auditory system has evolved over millions of years to provide a perception of a 360 degree soundfield, within that amplitude, frequency, direction ,distance etc, etc are all calculated, as well as that it can do virtually instant comparisons with a database of familiar sounds, different voices, instruments, cars, machinery, wildlife … the list goes on with the individuals personal experience,
So sound waves in the air are converted to sound waves in the fluid of the cochlea, which is a speed increase of around 4 times, then detected by around 2,000 hair cells tuned to a specific frequency in each ear these signals are sent to the audio cortex which correlates the various frequencies from both ears to form the 360 degree soundfield,
So in effect around 4,000 frequency tuned sound detectors (microphones) hooked up to a 4,000 channel “mixing desk” that has instant access to a database of sounds to compare to, and fine tune against,
With what do we measure such a complex system with 100% certainty ?

 

[Meridian7]

Standard measurements are vital to establish a standard of quality, once they go beyond the measured thresholds of human hearing there’s little point in going any further, if two items measure identically but are perceived to sound different somehow then more things need to be measured, but with what ?
...
With what do we measure such a complex system with 100% certainty ?

ASR has a very clear position in this and advocate this in a religious manner, that the only thing that matters and can matter is fully and completely determined with their measurements (+ interpretation thereof) and nothing whatsoever is possible to escape their measurements. Anything perceived (and thus hearing experiences foremost) outside the measurements is strictly psychological bias and should be fully disregarded in the name of their measurements truth.
Now I love a measurement, but the way they promote it as be-all-and-all without a flint of self relativation is sick, they really promote people to buy or not buy stuff on the base of a belief that nothing exist outside their volt-meter.

 

[ZappaMan]

With talk of reviews/reviewers, I found this review very refreshing and compelling. I’m also interested to buy the speakers to use with Mdave/etude.

I wonder if it’s transparency would align well with dave/etude and whether anyone has heard this combo?

 

[chelseafc]

ASR has a very clear position in this and advocate this in a religious manner, that the only thing that matters and can matter is fully and completely determined with their measurements (+ interpretation thereof) and nothing whatsoever is possible to escape their measurements. Anything perceived (and thus hearing experiences foremost) outside the measurements is strictly psychological bias and should be fully disregarded in the name of their measurements truth.
Now I love a measurement, but the way they promote it as be-all-and-all without a flint of self revitalization is sick, they really promote people to buy or not buy stuff on the base of a belief that nothing exist outside their volt-meter.

To me ASR’s statements that power cables or conditioners do not affect the sound of a DAC completely invalidate their approach.
RF noise and its mitigation made most profound impact on my system’s performance, yet I am not aware of any tests that would even attempt measure it.

 

[GuiltyRocker]

Standard measurements are vital to establish a standard of quality, once they go beyond the measured thresholds of human hearing there’s little point in going any further, if two items measure identically but are perceived to sound different somehow then more things need to be measured, but with what ?
Our auditory system has evolved over millions of years to provide a perception of a 360 degree soundfield, within that amplitude, frequency, direction ,distance etc, etc are all calculated, as well as that it can do virtually instant comparisons with a database of familiar sounds, different voices, instruments, cars, machinery, wildlife … the list goes on with the individuals personal experience,
So sound waves in the air are converted to sound waves in the fluid of the cochlea, which is a speed increase of around 4 times, then detected by around 2,000 hair cells tuned to a specific frequency in each ear these signals are sent to the audio cortex which correlates the various frequencies from both ears to form the 360 degree soundfield,
So in effect around 4,000 frequency tuned sound detectors (microphones) hooked up to a 4,000 channel “mixing desk” that has instant access to a database of sounds to compare to, and fine tune against,
With what do we measure such a complex system with 100% certainty ?

Perfectly said, I couldn't agree more.

 

[Meridian7]

It's not only ASR going all-in for the {measurement = all that (can) matter = holy truth = the rest is BS} philosophy.
Gene Dellasala has both knowledge and special measuring gear, having him convinced that cables don't matter, so he felt obligated to debunk 'cables-matter'.
Then again there is overpriced overrated snake oil out there and psychological bias exist too, one can't really argue with that as a given.
So that sets the premise for a very difficult conversation between convictions.

ASR and Gene make same error: it is their very own psychological bias that they covered every affecting aspect of nature with their measure. The bold claim that nothing can exist outside their scope of attention is an utter non scientifically attitude.

 

[paulrbarnard]

The simple answer to all this is read what you like, watch what you like, buy what you like and listen to what you like. Ignore all the rest

 

[GuiltyRocker]

It's not only ASR going all-in for the {measurement = all that (can) matter = holy truth = the rest is BS} philosophy.
Gene Dellasala has both knowledge and special measuring gear, having him convinced that cables don't matter, so he felt obligated to debunk 'cables-matter'.
Then again there is overpriced overrated snake oil out there and psychological bias exist too, one can't really argue with that as a given.
So that sets the premise for a very difficult conversation between convictions.

ASR and Gene make same error: it is their very own psychological bias that they covered every affecting aspect of nature with their measure. The bold claim that nothing can exist outside their scope of attention is an utter non scientifically attitude.

I find Gene entertaining, I know somebody that knows him and this person told me about all the free stuff they get from Manufacturers at Audioholics, it's a funny site and I've enjoyed some of their content, Gene seems like a nice guy. Given that he's an engineer and as such follows the "science" he subscribes to the measurements religion. To me, measurements have a role, but do we really have all the measurements to quantity what we hear? I want to see him measure psycho accoustics and also measure preference, he can't. Do we fully understand time in measurements? Looking at the stuff they have posted it seems they don't. We have camps and religions on all sides and the "us vs them" is really a problem.

 

[Meridian7]

I find Gene entertaining....seems like a nice guy.

I like Gene too, pleasant to watch his vids