[Ciggavelli]

Have you tried the Aperio? Yes it's E-stat but it's hyped to be blackhole deep in bass and dynamic-driver like in the slam. Looking forward to hear the hype myself at CanJam SoCal actually

I’ve been curious about it actually, but I’ve heard soundstage depth is not good, which is import to me. I have the Shangri-La Sr, which I absolutely love. If it had more sub bass, which the Aperio might have, it could be nice. I don’t like that you can’t use other headphones with it, and you can’t use the headphones with other amps though. And the bass I want is not so much slam, but sub bass extension (maybe even bloomy).

I’d love to try it out though. I want to go to that headphone store in the Netherlands and try out the HE-1, Aperio, and the Shangri-La Sr with the amp (I only have the headphones). I do think a CanJam is in my future though. I’ll have to fly for it, but I think it would be worth it.

 

[Rin1990]

There’re ultra-sensitive headphones like the AKG K371 that can be fully driven to almost deafening levels with perfectly clear power from an Apple dongle, achieving better audible results than a distorted and noise dominated multi-thousand OTL amplifier, so your reductionism isn’t as brilliant as you think.

Deeply ignorance is what it should be kicked out of the community, because their harmful effect.

I mean fair point but how many uses that particular headphone?

But I think the better question is how many does this statement spoke to? How good can the sound go with different gears? Surely an Apple Dongle cannot be the be all end all solution even for those efficient headphones/IEMs.

I just don't want people completely ignore the performance of the more expensive gear that a handful of owners use and dismiss them for being wasteful idiots.

I think what I'm trying to phrase here is what if people demand a bit more from their headphones? What about those with headphones like Susvara or Arya?

Unless you want to tell me a mere Apple dongle can also drive those to acceptably good the same way as that one particular AKG model...

You know, with that whole "power is power" objectivist nonsense that ASR won't stop banging people's heads for...

Also, naming only one example of a hyper-sensitive headphone doesn't exactly dismiss the necessity for many, many other harder-to-drive high impedance headphones now, does it?

 

[theveterans]

I’ve been curious about it actually, but I’ve heard soundstage depth is not good, which is import to me. I have the Shangri-La Sr, which I absolutely love. If it had more sub bass, which the Aperio might have, it could be nice. I don’t like that you can’t use other headphones with it, and you can’t use the headphones with other amps though. And the bass I want is not so much slam, but sub bass extension (maybe even bloomy).

I’d love to try it out though. I want to go to that headphone store in the Netherlands and try out the HE-1, Aperio, and the Shangri-La Sr with the amp (I only have the headphones). I do think a CanJam is in my future though. I’ll have to fly for it, but I think it would be worth it.

That's the only thing that's negative about it. From what I've seen though unlike the Bravura amp, the Aperio amp does not convert back the analog inputs to digital so you can use the DAVE DAC without altering its original sound.

 

[Rin1990]

Thanks for your response. No need to reply. Your explanation speaks for itself. You ignore the fact that Amir compared the DX7 pro+ with the DAVE using the exact same parameters and settings and the Topping measured better. I know…..you can ‘hear’ that the DAVE is better. You should have known that I meant the DX7 pro+ and not the D90SE in regard to measured noise floor modulation. I mean this sincerely: I wish I had your hearing abilities.

...are you sure you're not just trying to stir the pot while doing this for ASR's amusement?

 

[ZappaMan]

The ASR website has a clear bias against higher-priced equipment, another conflict of interest i keep seeing is companies like Topping sending the equipment directly to him to measure, clearly this presents opportunities to cherry pick, do you take in equipment from members to measure? Perhaps it's time another party like you that can be trusted take in equipment purchased at retail to verify these outlandish claims.

Without having the configurations, we can’t try to replicate any of this “science”.
I think if the configurations are not produced we should just drop the whole sorry story of Amir.

 

[Rin1990]

Without having the configurations, we can’t try to replicate any of this “science”.
I think if the configurations are not produced we should just drop the whole sorry story of Amir.

I think it's probably best to just drop the mention of Amir and ASR entirely, period.

Because there will never be a fully agreeable answer on both sides. And any objectivists lurking around here would try to defend Lord Amir till death do them apart so what even is the point of anything?

It's always the mentality of "Either with us or against us" when it comes to them. So...there's really no room for any healthy discussions to be had, if at all.

 

[Rob Watts]

@Rob Watts Just wondering, if you wanted to cherry pick, couldn't you get a unit to perform perfectly under the bench using certain parts and process to just measure highly in SINAD and other measurements like linearity and multi-tone tests if you didn't care about the sound?

Not really. DACs that measure very well do it by design, so sensitivity to problems are naturally reduced - if you can remove all the issues, in the end you are left with Nyquist noise, and amp distortion which are both very consistent from unit to unit.

Hi Rob. I guess the objectivists will ask if these differences ("significantly audible") would be as significant if you did the testing blind ?

And if you you can't pick out these differences in blind testing, then are they real?

As a science guy I'm sure you understand their argument there?

I think this is actually the crux of their argument.

And I guess I can see their side, on this point.

I like to think I'm somewhere in the between the two extreme sides

Blind testing has it's place - particularly if the components are neutrally identified (listen to this, or listen to that and describe the differences). And I use that a lot when something occurs that makes no rational sense, and I want anothers opinion to sanity check my observations. But the minute it's unidentified, then sensitivity falls apart - you are trying to work out what you are listening to, rather than the differences. And any stress is a sensitivity killer.

Thank you for the post @Rob Watts

My question remains why the Topping has better noise floor modulation measurements than the DAVE. Are you saying that Amir manipulated the measurement to show that result? The fact that the DAVE’s performance on that metric was partly responsible for its sonic superiority is one of the reason’s I purchased the DAVE. I don’t want to feel like time has caught up with the DAVE and that more modern designs have surpassed it. Please clarify why Amir achieved the result he did, and if his results have not been manipulated, are you planning a new DAVE to compete with more modern designs?

thnx

Dave has no measurable noise floor modulation (independently confirmed by GoldenOne). If someone measures it and sees noise floor modulation then they are not doing the test correctly. You can't use the AP defaults to do this test, as that will give the incorrect results. For instance - turning off the signal is done by setting the 1kHz level to -999dB. You must also ensure that nothing changes within the AP, so the input levels must be fixed at say 2.5v for both measurements. If you are using the high performance sine analyser ADC you need to ensure the frequency is fixed too.

Fair points but just a note - @GoldenOne measured DAVE + M-Scaler too and had similar measurements to ASR, both with APx555 ...

So if ASR rigged his Dave measurements to be less then 'state of the art', then the same question could be asked of GoldenOne?

I don't think there's any rigging in their Chord measurements to be honest.

I like GoldenOne's approach. He comes across as careful, intelligent and considered. He so far to me seems to be motivated by getting to the truth.

- Neither I nor Amir were able to achieve the same harmonic distortion results as Rob Watts. And I don't think I've ever seen a DAC with ALL harmonics below -145dB relative to the fundamental. So I am unsure how RW got these results.

I am also very puzzled as to why I have always gotten consistent ultra low distortion results with multiple Daves over several years, but yours were over 10 times worse. If you get another Dave, and don't replicate my results, then send me a PM so we can get to the bottom of it.

 

[paulrbarnard]

I agree totally. I want to be immersed and lose the upgraditis. I have a fondness for tubes for this reason. I often find that what I crave is just different, not “better” and a change in tube is enough. For cans, a good SS dac like the Dave and a tube amp can be an excellent solution. You can then plug directly into Dave or feed your tube amp from the Dave in dac mode. Such a change will be enough for long term joy, offering you enough difference to provide satisfaction across a wide array of music and also cure your upgraditis…. YMMV That said, I am months into my new dac on the main rig and it has never ceased to blow me away, not a single day. I pinch myself daily! It is not just a little better than Dave. It is a serious move.…

This is so true. My setup is DAVE plus a tube amp and most of the time I find the tube amp to be the one I want to listen to. Every now and then I’ll move the headphone jack over to the DAVE and spend a day or two with it there enjoying the ‘better’ sounds. It is the subtle difference in perception that make the brain fizz with enjoyment rather than the actual sound itself. My thought is that we are predisposed to look for change and enjoy discovering those differences. It was probably a significant selector in our evolutionary path.
So if I’m getting blasé with my system and feel like something is missing or could be better I simply move the headphone jack and the magic starts all over again.

 

[flyte3333]

Blind testing has it's place - particularly if the components are neutrally identified (listen to this, or listen to that and describe the differences). And I use that a lot when something occurs that makes no rational sense, and I want anothers opinion to sanity check my observations. But the minute it's unidentified, then sensitivity falls apart - you are trying to work out what you are listening to, rather than the differences. And any stress is a sensitivity killer.

Thanks Rob. But sighted listening surely has it's issues too? The objectivists argue they are quite major and can't be relied on ?

 

[Kentajalli]

Thanks Rob. But sighted listening surely has it's issues too? The objectivists argue they are quite major and can't be relied on ?

If I understand RW, he is saying that blind tests are required to identify an issue's existence .
Then a sighted one is required to scrutinize the issue.
It is not a question of one or the other. Both are used hand in hand at R&D level .

 

[JTbbb]

It depends.
The big factor is dynamic range. And in most circumstances, you want to do the volume control with the device that has the highest dynamic range.
If your DAC has say 120dB dynamic range, but your preamp has 140dB, then in theory you can attenuate by up to 20dB using the preamp before losing any actual dynamic range across the whole chain.

However if you attenuate at the DAC you're losing dynamic range immediately.

Hello there, if I may pic your brain on this subject?

I have Dave and a Feliks Envy tube amp. Unfortunately I physically cannot adjust the Envy’s volume control, but I can adjust the Dave’s volume using the remote.

I have the Envy volume set at a point which allows comfortable listening volume with Dave at -10db, (in DAC mode Dave is set at -3db) and then adjust accordingly depending on the loudness of the recording.

I know that the signal path for Dave, whether in DAC or Pre-Amp mode, is identical. So my question is, am I losing dynamic range? It has elsewhere been suggested that one or the other should be set at max volume and adjust the volume on the other, to gain full dynamic range. But surely, if I did this, I would have so little volume control it would be unusable.

I have to say I am extremely happy with the sound quality, and wonder, if there is a technical advantage, that I would hear it.

Your Thoughts Please

 

[Kentajalli]

I have the Envy volume set at a point which allows comfortable listening volume with Dave at -10db, (in DAC mode Dave is set at -3db) and then adjust accordingly depending on the loudness of the recording.

Your tube amp is unlikely to have a dynamic range higher than DAVE. I suggest you put it on low gain first, turn up the volume to a level, that you hear no noise with your headphones, so when nothing is playing you only have silence. Use balanced output of DAVE to connect to the balanced input of your amp.
Now use Dave's volume control.

I know that the signal path for Dave, whether in DAC or Pre-Amp mode, is identical. So my question is, am I losing dynamic range?

Technically yes, you could be, the above should afford you max. dynamic range

It has elsewhere been suggested that one or the other should be set at max volume and adjust the volume on the other, to gain full dynamic range. But surely, if I did this, I would have so little volume control it would be unusable.
I have to say I am extremely happy with the sound quality, and wonder, if there is a technical advantage, that I would hear it.

The above is my answer in the interim, till goldensound replies.

 

[flyte3333]

Dave has no measurable noise floor modulation (independently confirmed by GoldenOne). If someone measures it and sees noise floor modulation then they are not doing the test correctly. You can't use the AP defaults to do this test, as that will give the incorrect results. For instance - turning off the signal is done by setting the 1kHz level to -999dB. You must also ensure that nothing changes within the AP, so the input levels must be fixed at say 2.5v for both measurements. If you are using the high performance sine analyser ADC you need to ensure the frequency is fixed too.

Hi @Rob Watts how useful is this single tone test compared to multitone (which better represents music?)

Are you saying that none of your DACs show any measurable noise floor modulation even with multitone tests?

@GoldenOne measured Dave's multitone and it interestingly shows a similar shape as ASR's multitone for Dave (noise and/or distortion higher in bass frequencies)

The single tone seems not practical, when you think about music ?

These plots are bettered by many DACs today (APx555 measurements)

Check this out !

 

[SoupRKnowva]

When it comes to volume control, I would caution against too much of a focus on dynamic range, just as we would all caution against too much of a focus on SINAD to judge a dac or amp.

With a well implemented digital volume control, such as on the Dave, you might lose some theoretical dynamic range, but there are a few counter points. One, most recordings don't have anywhere near that much dynamic range. the second, and main point to me, is that the addition of any pre, will necessitate a loss of transparency vs driving an amp direct with the Dave. Even using a high end passive such as a goldpoint, very close to my amp, there is a noticeably drop in sound quality vs wiring it direct. But as with all things, it will depend on your preferences and what you value most, so I would tell people to try it out for themselves.

Personally I am usually running Dave at roughly -40 to -30db depending on album, and I would gladly do that instead of run a pre.

 

[Kentajalli]

Hi @Rob Watts how useful is this single tone test compared to multitone (which better represents music?)

May better represent music, but as a whole it does not. When was the last time, any music had as much bass voltage, midrange voltage and treble voltage all at the same time? try never!
Usually music is all Bass, and from there the levels drop massively, what you see on a spectrum analyser is a weighted display, in reality it would be all bass, and very little after that.

Are you saying that none of your DACs show any measurable noise floor modulation even with multitone tests?
@GoldenOne measured Dave's multitone and it interestingly shows a similar shape as ASR's multitone for Dave (noise and/or distortion higher in bass frequencies)
The single tone seems not practical, when you think about music ?
These plots are bettered by many DACs today (APx555 measurements)

For clarity, Noise Floor Modulation is a different phenomenon. it has nothing to do with noise floor, or noise amount. It is a situation, when noise floor dynamically dances with music, what ever the steady state levels were.
Going back to your graphs, are the levels bettered by many DACs? let's see:
- to begin with it is misleading publishing a graph and claim, there it is, cast in stone!
However, let's look at ASR's results. You provided one graph that shows something, fine, here is another from ASR:
Compare them, do they look alike?

When ASR measures and produces some graphs, as evidence to prove one thing, should they re-measure the same device to prove another issue, the graphs may not match, sometimes!
I am not accusing ASR of cooking their results, NO, some measurements can not be recreated, there are many variables, many settings and conditions on the measuring equipment.
Look at the graph with minimal noise floor, there is a tiny spike at what I reckon is 60Hz (mains hum?), but it does not exist on the other graph! but then it reappears on multi-tone tests.
It seems that DAVE has one, single 4th order distortion spike at -142dB on one graph only, and the rest are indeed at roughly -150dB, yet that has been picked on as evidence.
I leave it to you to search for Goldensound's recent noise-modulation result on DAVE.

Bottom line! DAVE is now 7 or more years old, designed probably a few years prior, ask yourself, even taking the worst case scenario, Is it still neck and neck with Toppings new TOTL product that has just been released??
Worst case scenario!
And that is just from a handful of measurements - if you ever get a chance, try listening to them side by side.
I have, and still do! I have a Topping DX7 pro (not the latest plus) and my Hugo2 is honestly superior. You think I am biased? why should I be? I already have both, love them both, the Topping is very good, but Hugo2 has the upper hand.

Check this out !