CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE

[adrianm]

Tried a pre but that only adds more distortion and coloration.

Well again, that depends on the pre. I was only talkin about the benchmark, which was measured not to add any distortion to the only analyzer capable of measuring Dave accurately. So you should be safe

 

[MvRBE10]

Well again, that depends on the pre. I was only talkin about the benchmark, which was measured not to add any distortion to the only analyzer capable of measuring Dave accurately. So you should be safe

Indeed i am only talking about my setup. Noticed by listening with others it all depends on so much factors and synergy.

 

[GryphonGuy]

Except, this guy is doing an unnecessary double output, introducing an additional output stage which is not needed. It is not like the internal output stage is replaced by that of the external amplifier. If you are using crappy B&W speakers which are a pain to drive, then it makes sense to introduce an additional amp stage.

And really, my 16" M1 Max MacBook Pro drives headphones like the Sennheiser HD 650 and Sennheiser HD 800S fine just to show what kind of snake oil headphone amplifiers are. We are talking about milliWatts here, that is basically nothing.

WOW. Both funny and sad at the same time.

Both the speaker brand and headphone brand you mention can be driven less than optimally by almost any amplifier and you may enjoy the sound they produce under those conditions. However, B&W speakers love to be driven by class-A amplifiers, the more "instant" power the better. The higher power available to a B&W speaker brings greater control which in turn gives a rock-solid soundstage with tighter sonics, thus enhancing the soundstage presentation if they are positioned well for the listening position and the room.

Many years ago I took my Sennheiser HD650 headphones to a HiFi shop to listen to as a reference for some new headphones I wanted to audition. The shop had a brand of high-powered class-A headphone amplifier that I cannot recall what brand it was now but the sound from the HD650's was so good, I wanted to buy my own HD650 again as I heard that same tightness of presentation etc that I described with the B&W's above. Those auditions on that high-end headphone amplifier forever changed my perception of how a headphone can produce sound. So good headphone amplifiers can drive these high-resistance headphones, like Sennheiser, much better (more realistically sounding) than a low powered device, although those low powered devices tickle the headphones into producing a sound of sorts that some people find acceptable. I know I did until I made that decision to listen to equipment that I could not afford. 7 or 8 years later and much audio education and experience under my belt and that itch has been scratched.

Regards
GG

 

[crmiller]

Apologies for the topic drift, folks.

That's the official reply from the dealer, but I don't know him, and our entire conversation was centered around him telling me not to throw my money away on an expensive dac if i'm going to be using headphones. So mixed signals.

I sort of wonder if that sort of attitude is why, at least in the USA, dCS has changed their marketing approach to allow the Bartok Headphone model to be sold by headphone centric online retailers. My dCS dealer didn’t seem to know anything about headphones and at first didn’t quite know what to do with me inquiring about a Bartok for that purpose. They did have one on the demo floor, though. So I spent some hours with it (and my headphones) before ordering.

What was botched about it? The fact that the board won't fit in the Headphone edition? It's not available for the regular Bartok either.

No, not that. The way info got out about APEX wasn’t managed well. The name and rumors about pricing were out close to a month before there was any info about what it even was. dCS wouldn’t even acknowledge the leaks. So in an information vacuum the rumors took over and I don’t recall any of them being accurate. Worse, when dCS did announce, it was piecemeal with like a week between additional bits of info, and so more rumors. I’m not offended that APEX isn’t available for Bartok, but they really need to get a handle on their communications. I’ll point to Linn as an alternative example. They seem to assume that nothing will stay secret (it doesn’t) and approach accordingly.

 

[ubs28]

WOW. Both funny and sad at the same time.

Both the speaker brand and headphone brand you mention can be driven less than optimally by almost any amplifier and you may enjoy the sound they produce under those conditions. However, B&W speakers love to be driven by class-A amplifiers, the more "instant" power the better. The higher power available to a B&W speaker brings greater control which in turn gives a rock-solid soundstage with tighter sonics, thus enhancing the soundstage presentation if they are positioned well for the listening position and the room.

Many years ago I took my Sennheiser HD650 headphones to a HiFi shop to listen to as a reference for some new headphones I wanted to audition. The shop had a brand of high-powered class-A headphone amplifier that I cannot recall what brand it was now but the sound from the HD650's was so good, I wanted to buy my own HD650 again as I heard that same tightness of presentation etc that I described with the B&W's above. Those auditions on that high-end headphone amplifier forever changed my perception of how a headphone can produce sound. So good headphone amplifiers can drive these high-resistance headphones, like Sennheiser, much better (more realistically sounding) than a low powered device, although those low powered devices tickle the headphones into producing a sound of sorts that some people find acceptable. I know I did until I made that decision to listen to equipment that I could not afford. 7 or 8 years later and much audio education and experience under my belt and that itch has been scratched.

Regards
GG

B&W sounds crap. I never heard B&W speakers sound good except when we tested it on a $250.000 system. We also had respresentives of B&W listen to our setup and they also said they never heard their own speakers sound this good.

Funny thing is, you can buy a budget speaker system for $15k (unless recent inflation changed the price) using only a $3k receiver (without using an external amplifier) that sounds better than a $50k B&W setup, that is how bad B&W are. B&W is the most overrated brand I have ever heard.

Well, my 16” M1 Max MacBook Pro can drive these “high-resistance headphones” without a single problem too. You don’t need a big expensive headphone amplifier for that.

 

[801evan]

that is how bad B&W are. B&W is the most overrated brand I have ever heard.

A bad carpenter blames the chair

 

[ubs28]

A bad carpenter blames the chair

I guess you never really heard how good speakers sound like if you think B&W is good. And have fun spending big money on amplifiers with B&W speakers, because they sound bad without it.

 

[nwavesailor]

Tough crowd in here today........and I have not heard B&W's

 

[Progisus]

Shout out for B&W

 

[GryphonGuy]

If I bought my system again from new it would cost me around $250,000. So glad that the solution is only money and why my B&W 802 diamonds sound good even today with 400 watt per channel class-A amplification.

 

[jlbrach]

I guess you never really heard how good speakers sound like if you think B&W is good. And have fun spending big money on amplifiers with B&W speakers, because they sound bad without it.

B&W speakers are outstanding...cut it out

 

[sm60]

B&W speakers are outstanding...cut it out

I would never characterize B&W 800 series as “crap”. If you do, you don’t understand what these statement products are all about.

I owned for many years the mammoth B&W 800 Nautilus speakers that each weighed almost 300 pounds each, and the later 800 Diamond series 1. These are heroically built highly demanding speakers that are intended for studio use (e.g., Abbey Road Studios has long used the stouter smaller 801 series). The sonic profile of studio speakers is very different from typical home audio speakers. B&W 800s that I owned were quite flat in their response from around 30 Hz to well over 20 KHz. They can take up to 1000 watts of undistorted amplification producing 120 dB loudness at modest distortion levels. Needless to say, this is well beyond what you need in even a large room. I had a very large listening room snd I drove these with an ultra massive Krell 700CX, the best solid state amplifier I have ever heard. The 800s are picky: they do not take kindly to tubes, and the huge woofers takes a lot of current to control. They can sound awful if driven by a poor amplifier.

I sold all these when I moved to the Bay Area, much to my regret. But the newer 800 series are not the same. They weigh much less and are far less neutral, having been engineered with a rising top. I would not like the newer ones.

I think if I went down this road again, I would get a JBL Everest 6700, which weighs about 330 pounds each and can produce bone rattling levels of 130 dB with very low levels of distortion. But again these are studio speakers not intended for home use. They reveal every sonic wart in a recording, and are unflinchingly honest, even merciless. They are like a microscope. I prefer warmer sounding speakers these days — I’d rather not hear all the mistakes made by a recording engineer.

 

[Sampajanna]

This thread seems to have opened the door under the bridge…. New B&W are a bit (tad) warmer. As with all speakers, they need the right gear and to be set up properly. When they are, they sound great. “B&W are all crap” is flat-out trolling. Have you heard every speaker they make? With every combination of gear? What kind of hubris would prompt such a silly opinion posited so strongly as though it were truth? To me that is the definition of trolling.

 

[sm60]

This thread seems to have opened the door under the bridge…. New B&W are a bit (tad) warmer. As with all speakers, they need the right gear and to be set up properly. When they are, they sound great. “B&W are all crap” is flat-out trolling. Have you heard every speaker they make? With every combination of gear? What kind of hubris would prompt such a silly opinion posited so strongly as though it were truth? To me that is the definition of trolling.

Just to amplify this point, I’m listening right now to a legendary live jazz recording — Gerry Mulligan Live at the Village Vanguard — on a pair of Harbeth Monitor 40.1s, with the source being CD on the Blu Mk2 and the Dave. The Harbeth’s are also a studio monitor made expressly for the BBC. They could not sound more different from the B&W 800s and are designed using entirely different principles. The large B&Ws have a highly rigid cabinet with a separate marble like Marlan head housing the midrange and tweeter. The Harbeth uses a highly lossy resonant wooden chassis intended to partially absorb the sound, and the resonances are designed to be at frequencies that are not particularly noticeable. The Harbeth sounds like the B&W with the tweeter removed, a far warmer sound. Which is right? Neither and both. There’s no right snd no wrong here. Different design choices and principles. Vastly different sound signatures.

I’m driving the Harbeth with flea market $200 Crown pro amplifiers, which produce 200 watts a channel and weigh 10 pounds. I picked them up Guitar Etc., a pro music chain store 5 years back as I needed amplifiers with Speakon connectors. The Harbeth’s sound fine with such flea market amplifiers. The large B&W 800s would sound dreadful on the el cheapo Crown’s.

 

[chesebert]

Just to amplify this point, I’m listening right now to a legendary live jazz recording — Gerry Mulligan Live at the Village Vanguard — on a pair of Harbeth Monitor 40.1s, with the source being CD on the Blu Mk2 and the Dave. The Harbeth’s are also a studio monitor made expressly for the BBC. They could not sound more different from the B&W 800s and are designed using entirely different principles. The large B&Ws have a highly rigid cabinet with a separate marble like Marlan head housing the midrange and tweeter. The Harbeth uses a highly lossy resonant wooden chassis intended to partially absorb the sound, and the resonances are designed to be at frequencies that are not particularly noticeable. The Harbeth sounds like the B&W with the tweeter removed, a far warmer sound. Which is right? Neither and both. There’s no right snd no wrong here. Different design choices and principles. Vastly different sound signatures.

I’m driving the Harbeth with flea market $200 Crown pro amplifiers, which produce 200 watts a channel and weigh 10 pounds. I picked them up Guitar Etc., a pro music chain store 5 years back as I needed amplifiers with Speakon connectors. The Harbeth’s sound fine with such flea market amplifiers. The large B&W 800s would sound dreadful on the el cheapo Crown’s.

In Bay Area with big enough space for 40.1? Well done!

I am guessing a nice pair of Pass Labs monoblocks (or similar quality amp) is in the works?