CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE

[number1sixerfan]

Ultimately, I don't believe that either preference is "wrong", except in that the idea of "properly driven" is sufficiently undefined as to be somewhat BS. It's really only just what sounds best to you.

I agree with most of the general sentiment of this point ... and especially in terms of there simply being no absolute or objective "best" or "right". But there's a bit of a sliding scale when it comes to subjectivity and adequate performance (specs needed and quality design). There's pretty much a general consensus on this site (especially outside of this thread), among those that have owned the Susvara and have tested both options.. that it needs an external amp. In this specific case, this has far less to do with preference and far more to do with a very sizable gap in performance based on what we know the Susvara is capable of. (I hate to use this example, I'm quite tired of the topic lol.. but it was the point of me using "properly driven" and "optimally" in the first place.)

I think most would agree that there's also a general consensus that the Dave "optimally" or "properly drives" low impedance, easier to drive headphones. So although everything is subjective and not all may agree, there are some things we can reasonably say have some level of "truth".

 

[adrianm]

One of the things about the dCS Bartok that is compelling are the firmware upgrades— it’s something Chord should revisit across all their DACs and especially with the DAVE. With supply chain issues, economic uncertainty, and rapidly increasing complexity in device compatibility (white noise), it would be wise for Chord to think about offering firmware upgrades rather than a DAVE 2 and M Scaler X, Y, Z. It also would have a huge impact on customer loyalty, reducing the secondhand market, and it’s environmentally responsible. I’m still failing to see why the Mojo 2 exists considering the Mojo is largely the same exact platform. Firmware and component upgrades are certainly working for companies like dCS, PS Audio, Schiit and many others because it’s the way forward.

I get where you're coming from. Chord is not exactly leading the say in the software department, but i don't hold it against them. Good software is expensive ,and i'd rather have top tier performance than a pretty interface. I have Roon for that.
One of the things i love about my current setup, and why i wouldn't trade it for DCS stuff, is i can play with HQplayer/PGGB instead of DCS own filters for example, while still having the advantage to upsample to 768k instead of 384.
Granted, you get what you pay for in terms of the upsampling experience, but to me it was clear to me since before buying Dave that with Chord you're paying for performance first of all.
If i do buy the new M-Scaler, i'd expect it not to need batteries or ferrites first of all.
As for the Mojo 2, the so-claimed "lossless dsp" is interesting, I'd definitely want that on a future Dave. If only for a better CF implementation.

 

[adrianm]

It’s worth pointing out again that there exists no headphone or speaker on Earth for any amount of money that even achieves CD red book 16 bit level linearity, let alone higher resolutions like 24 bit or DSD 64-512. Typical headphones give you perhaps 10 bits of resolution, if you are lucky (the best Stax achieve around 0.1% distortion in the midrange as do Quad electrostatics loudspeakers, and that distortion goes up considerably in the bass or at higher decibel levels). A 40 year old Sony ES CD player achieved nearly -96dB distortion levels, theoretically approaching redbook maximum linearity. Even the million dollar Magico made near my house will have at least 30dB worse distortion than redbook CD.

In summary, whatever your preferences for using a headphone with or without Dave, I can assure you even the worst designed headphone amplifier has massively less distortion than the world’s best headphones or speakers. So, you should completely ignore distortion measurements as a guide. Once you factor in the fact that human hearing is massively nonlinear, because of the Fletcher Munson curves, our capacity to detect distortion is almost entirely of no consequence. We can and do tolerate 10% THD in the bass since we are largely oblivious to it. Further not all distortion is considered the same. Second order distortion is quite pleasing to the ear.

You seem to be treating distortion as it's a linear thing that is only relevant up to the level of the weakest link. Why does the amp having less distortion than the transducer matter? To my mind, distortion adds up following an exponential growth model, like compound interest.
As for THD in the bass...switching from the Z1R to the Elite, one of the biggest areas of improvement was the bass, as now i can actually distinguish different bass notes, not just <insert bass sound here>. And this is further improved when adding the HPA4 vs direct Dave.
If not reduced distortion, what would I attribute this improvement to? "Better bass"? People seem to love keeping the science and the romantic part of audio separate, but not draw any correlation. I get why the audio industry wants this, but with unaffiliated people, I don't understand it.
And again, when I say improvement I mean objectively, when it's subjective, I clearly call it out.

 

[iDesign]

I get where you're coming from. Chord is not exactly leading the say in the software department, but i don't hold it against them. Good software is expensive ,and i'd rather have top tier performance than a pretty interface. I have Roon for that.
One of the things i love about my current setup, and why i wouldn't trade it for DCS stuff, is i can play with HQplayer/PGGB instead of DCS own filters for example, while still having the advantage to upsample to 768k instead of 384.
Granted, you get what you pay for in terms of the upsampling experience, but to me it was clear to me since before buying Dave that with Chord you're paying for performance first of all.
If i do buy the new M-Scaler, i'd expect it not to need batteries or ferrites first of all.
As for the Mojo 2, the so-claimed "lossless dsp" is interesting, I'd definitely want that on a future Dave. If only for a better CF implementation.

I'm not sure I fully understand your post. I'm quite sure most owners would rather have new features like the Mojo 2 DSP EQ and other features added to the DAVE via an affordable firmware update than to purchase a whole new future DAVE. With the pace of innovation, it is no longer reasonable to have electronic devices that cannot be updated. The updates can be monetized and it becomes a win win for Chord and owners.

 

[801evan]

No, there isn't some crystalline purity in connecting the headphones directly into the FPGA

i can actually distinguish different bass notes, not just <insert bass sound here>. And this is further improved when adding the HPA4 vs direct Dave.
If not reduced distortion, what would I attribute this improvement to? "Better bass"?

Both are relatable...

The only reason an external amp sounds better is because the external amp is using its own PSU. The Dave HP out has to share the same smps psu as the dac. So most of the improvement one is hearing from an external amp is the PSU, nothing else. Okay, an external amp design with better noise rejection and slew rate can be 'better' but the bigger factor would be the psu.

That's why it's bringing back the subject of how there is nothing wrong with the HP output stage of the Dave, but the issue is the power quality driving that amp and we've been mentioning solutions to that.

 

[adrianm]

I'm not sure I fully understand your post. I'm quite sure most owners would rather have new features like the Mojo 2 DSP EQ and other features added to the DAVE via an affordable firmware update than to purchase a whole new future DAVE. With the pace of innovation, it is no longer reasonable to have electronic devices that cannot be updated. The updates can be monetized and it becomes a win win for Chord and owners.

I mean Dave is pretty limited from a software perspective. No filter options, etc. I agree with what you are saying, but Chord is more... Ferrari than Tesla. I also have doubts as to how much can actually be "improved" post design stage , except bug fixes. The biggest thing would be the WTA filter itself, like DCS do. The rest of the stuff would be more changes than actual improvements, so i don't think we're missing all that much. Keep in mind DCS is asking for 9000$ to upgrade a Rossini to the "Apex" version, and i expect hardware upgrade is where you'll see the actual improvement.

 

[ubs28]

Why do we always need to argue in such extremes? I'm not doubting your claim that you heard improved transparency because of better cables, but I'm laughing that you think $10k is what you need to spend for them.

That is what is based on my testing. "Hifi" cables in the $500 - $1000 range were really terrible. It was only at the highest levels where the difference between the Chord Dave versus Chord Dave + Taurus MK II started disappearing.

Now, you guys go ahead and grab your budget Van Hull interconnect cables and think the differences you hear must be coming from "power".

But what you guys fail to notice is, even laptops like the 16" M1 Max MacBook Pro drives "hard to drive" headphones like the Sennheiser HD 650 and HD 800S without any problems at all. So it's definitely not "power" what you guys are hearing, and the differences are most likely coming from the amplifier + interconnect cables.

 

[adrianm]

Both are relatable...

The only reason an external amp sounds better is because the external amp is using its own PSU. The Dave HP out has to share the same smps psu as the dac. So most of the improvement one is hearing from an external amp is the PSU, nothing else. Okay, an external amp design with better noise rejection and slew rate can be 'better' but the bigger factor would be the psu.

That's why it's bringing back the subject of how there is nothing wrong with the HP output stage of the Dave, but the issue is the power quality driving that amp and we've been mentioning solutions to that.

I share your thinking up to a point, the PSU is definitely a weak point. However, i've recently A/B'd mine vs a Dave with a custom PSU (not SJ or Farad) that sounded MUCH better in (very expensive) 2 channel system, but considerably worse than my stock Dave in driving the Elites.
There was clearly a ton more noise, as soundstage was collapsed into a wall of sound. Everything else being the same. We just swapped Daves (They were also both black )
So i am convinced that the HP out of Dave is more sensitive to the power quality, but i am skeptical PSU designers actually build them with this in mind, instead of improving overall performance in a speaker system. I know you like your tinkering ,but try to have an audition at one point.
Also, i suspect the pre-amp in the HPA4 might be the biggest upgrade in this case. If I do decide to add an amp for "flavor" , I plan on keeping the HPA4 as a pre-amp, and will test out this hypothesis.

 

[Articnoise]

This constant debate about how much power it takes to power headphone X, and whether it sounds better with or without a separate amp can be amusing, but unfortunately too much of the same repeting debate has the opposite effect IMO.

 

[adrianm]

This constant debate about how much power it takes to power headphone X, and whether it sounds better with or without a separate amp can be amusing, but unfortunately too much of the same repeting debate has the opposite effect IMO.

This is why i specifically mentioned this test was done with the easiest to drive headphones, the Elites. So it's not about current/power. It's about overall quality, regardless of how much power they need.

 

[adrianm]

You have a valid point that IM distortion is typically more audible than harmonic distortion, and Benchmark doesn't specify that explicitly. It turns out that ASR measured the HPA4 and posted this:

Note that the APx555 is in loopback mode with an internal connection from input to output. The HPA4 involves multiple cables and active circuits in the HPA4. So this has some penalty in noise when the input signal/voltage is lower. But once we get to 1 volt, the IMD measurement floors at the same level as my analyzer. We cannot measure how good it is!

Furthermore, neither I nor Benchmark has any interest in "rigging" measurements. ASR posted this in regards to the HPA4's THD:

Are your socks blown off as mine are? Second harmonic distortion is at an incredible -140 dB. That is insanely good. THD+N meter is running out of zeros to describe it as a percent! Going by SINAD version in dB, we have combination of noise and distortion that is at -120 dB. With our best case hearing dynamic range of 116 dB, we are in absolute transparency department.

---------

All of this aside, my point was simply that when people put an amp between the DAVE and their headphones and hear a difference, they are not necessarily hearing sound that is less transparent than if the amplifier weren't there. This is due to the fact that the fidelity of the output of the DAC is not independent of the load it is driving! If the amplifier is better equipped to drive the headphones with lower distortion than the DAC is, adding the amp to the chain may result in more transparency (fidelity to the input data).

I'm not a fan of ASR , and i am surprised we finally agree on something . This is pretty much what I was hearing and trying to share with everyone. I know it's a bold claim to make, but IMO:
Paradoxically, Dave in Dac mode + HPA4 sounds to me more like "pure Dave" than direct to Dave does. And i do now understand why others were saying Dave is a world class dac, but is let down by the HP out.
By the forum's own logic, if adding "thickness" and "weight" (considering extremely easy to drive headphones) is adding distortion, Dave's Hp out sounds distorted compared to the HPA4. So i think we can move past this argument. What you do get is a noticeable improvement in...everything: resolution, imaging and soundstage especially.
That said, i imagine people using tube amps won't be fans of the lack of second harmonic distortion. I would still try the HPA4 as a pre between a Dave and your amp, especially if it's not a balanced design.
If others' findings mirror my own and bring them similar joy, great, if not, I'm curious what your impressions are

 

[Reactcore]

I'm not sure I fully understand your post. I'm quite sure most owners would rather have new features like the Mojo 2 DSP EQ and other features added to the DAVE via an affordable firmware update than to purchase a whole new future DAVE. With the pace of innovation, it is no longer reasonable to have electronic devices that cannot be updated. The updates can be monetized and it becomes a win win for Chord and owners.

Oh i'm sure Chord can update Daves FPGA's
They only need to connect the programmer into the header in this hole (yellow arrow) and load Rob's latest WTA file ..i eat my shoes if he hasnt improved it further in the last 6 years.. if even for his own curiousity.. but it didnt got released to the public.

 

[801evan]

However, i've recently A/B'd mine vs a Dave with a custom PSU (not SJ or Farad) that sounded MUCH better in (very expensive) 2 channel system, but considerably worse than my stock Dave in driving the Elites.
There was clearly a ton more noise, as soundstage was collapsed into a wall of sound. Everything else being the same. We just swapped Daves (They were also both black )

This is vague as the custom PSU lacks some description for us to diagnose...and it sounding better on 2 channel while crap on Elite over stock lacks a lot of data to make a conclusion over it except that in the specific chain made, it made the loudspeaker setup good but the HP worse. Is Dave on usb or spdif?

You have to mention the chain and what's going on the the psu. My latest custom psu brought more performance but along with it more noticeable noise on my HP setup, so I had to redesign the line conditioner and now it brings a wider, quieter, faster yet more calming presentation. Any psu upgrade I've done has improved the sound but also introduced some problems which is similar to what you are hearing on the elites. If I were to take a guess, what you have described is telltale of needing a cable upgrade on the Elite or heavier filtering on the psu upgrade. This is also why the loudspeaker sounds better because it's amplifier is externally powered while HP out is sharing power.

 

[Arniesb]

Both are relatable...

The only reason an external amp sounds better is because the external amp is using its own PSU. The Dave HP out has to share the same smps psu as the dac. So most of the improvement one is hearing from an external amp is the PSU, nothing else. Okay, an external amp design with better noise rejection and slew rate can be 'better' but the bigger factor would be the psu.

That's why it's bringing back the subject of how there is nothing wrong with the HP output stage of the Dave, but the issue is the power quality driving that amp and we've been mentioning solutions to that.

Golden measured Dave's amp and it is nothing to write about. Not only separate amps measure better, have real analog wollume controls and power supply is not shared for dac too.
Thing is guys here dont have their own opinion and just listen whatever designer are saying and they were proven wrong time and time again in the history.

 

[801evan]

Golden measured Dave's amp and it is nothing to write about. Not only separate amps measure better, have real analog wollume controls and power supply is not shared for dac too.
Thing is guys here dont have their own opinion and just listen whatever designer are saying and they were proven wrong time and time again in the history.

Golden also has a new review where he said measurements aren't everything and it's not all about SINAD. otherwise it's just a decision between a Topping D90 DAC or a Tambaqui.