[hieukm]

Been lurking here a while and thought I would chime in on a couple of things if it helps anyone.... I know this is mainly a headphone site and many of you use your Dave in that way. I have a Mscaler>TT2>Cayin HA300 for headphones. I use my Dave for my main speaker setup. I think this is often underestimated. The Dave can be a real giant killer with the right speakers and equipment.

I own the Sean Jacobs DC4 and if any of you are on the fence about this product, all I can say is that it absolutely blew my mind. ( I have since ordered a second one for my Mscaler as well. Can't wait!) My journey towards the DC4 began with power cables. My system is pretty resolving, highlighting small changes. I experienced a very, very noticeable difference between a stock, so-so and shunyata alpha cable into my Dave. Then I upgraded to the Shunyata sigma and that was noticeable even to my wife. That got me thinking that this device is really sensitive to power and the DC4 might be worth a try.... Wow! is all I can say. All due respect to Robb Watts for all the joy he has brought my life. Deep bows, brother, but you need to listen to the DC4! It is mind-numbingly smooth and beautiful and opens the Dave up in every possible direction. The Dave now honestly competes with way, way more expensive DACs friends brought over. The Mscaler>Wavestorm cables>Dave w/ DC4 power is IMHO better in some areas than the dCS Vivaldi, though not as good as the MSB I borrowed (hehe).... Anyway, just one dude's opinion. If you can afford the upgrade, you won't be disappointed. Also, I am a dolt when it comes to electronics and even I could manage the job of converting it--pretty easy...

My main set up, in case you are wondering:

Innuos Statement>
Mscaler>
Dave>
AVM Ovation MA 8.3 monos>
KEF Reference 5

DC4 & PS Audio P10 power plant
All Shunyata sigma cabling (except for the Wavestorm)

Please let us know what improvement do you have when the 2nd DC4 arrive. I also had a DC4 powering my Dave and assessing situation for the 2nd one for Blu2/HMS.

Just out of curiousity, which MSB DAC did you compare to? Was the Dave + HMS far off? Was the HMS powered by LPS?

 

[BassicScience]

The other question is if it makes sense to invest thousands in modifying digital tech that will soon be obsolete or replaced by a newer version?

The short answer is "no".

 

[Sampajanna]

It is an easy mod. I am so clumsy and have no experience. I did put the cable guard in upside down, but realized it soon and switched. All in all it is an easy process. And should you want to sell the Dave one day, returning the original power supply is also easy enough. I wouldnt say it is a necessary upgrade. Nothing is. I would call the Wave cables far more necessary than the DC4 if you have an Mscaler.... This all depends on usage and other factors. If you are using Dave for heaphones, I probably wouldnt consider this at all. If you are using it for speakers and can afford the upgrade, it is more than worth it. As I said, I had friends bring over a dCS vivaldi, which is way more than the Dave with Mscaler, Wave cables and DC4 and in some areas the Dave outshone (we all agreed). This wouldn't be true without the Mscaler, Wave cables and DC4....

I have no idea about measurements vs. subject experience and linnear vs other types of power. In the end, I try to enjoy the process of building and improving a system, learning and, of course, in the end, the music is all there is to it. It is nice when measurements align with that and provid objectivity. But this is all a mysterious and magical blend of objective engineering and subjective experience. That said, the DC4 is no small, subtle change. It is not some kind of some people may here this or placebo type of thing.... I have had cables like that, where you cannot be sure and keep asking yourself "am I really hearing this." Oh no. There is no need for back and forth. Plug the DC4 into your Dave and a new world opens.

 

[Sampajanna]

Please let us know what improvement do you have when the 2nd DC4 arrive. I also had a DC4 powering my Dave and assessing situation for the 2nd one for Blu2/HMS.

Just out of curiousity, which MSB DAC did you compare to? Was the Dave + HMS far off? Was the HMS powered by LPS?

Yes, my HMS is currently powered by MCRU power supply. The MSB was a Reference and no the Chord system was KO. Not close. But I would hope so for that price. However, the dCS Vivaldi system was close and we felt the Chord system outshone it in some areas--more resolving and "crystalline" and a nicer timber. But the Vivaldi with the clock is smoother. I would say that this system competes withe the Vivaldi alone in a serious way, but is bested by the Vivaldi with its clock and upsampler, but again you would hope so for the price. Overall, considering the cost of HMS+ Wave cables + Dave + DC4, I am very pleased with how it fared against these giants....

 

[hieukm]

It is an easy mod. I am so clumsy and have no experience. I did put the cable guard in upside down, but realized it soon and switched. All in all it is an easy process. And should you want to sell the Dave one day, returning the original power supply is also easy enough. I wouldnt say it is a necessary upgrade. Nothing is. I would call the Wave cables far more necessary than the DC4 if you have an Mscaler.... This all depends on usage and other factors. If you are using Dave for heaphones, I probably wouldnt consider this at all. If you are using it for speakers and can afford the upgrade, it is more than worth it. As I said, I had friends bring over a dCS vivaldi, which is way more than the Dave with Mscaler, Wave cables and DC4 and in some areas the Dave outshone (we all agreed). This wouldn't be true without the Mscaler, Wave cables and DC4....

I have no idea about measurements vs. subject experience and linnear vs other types of power. In the end, I try to enjoy the process of building and improving a system, learning and, of course, in the end, the music is all there is to it. It is nice when measurements align with that and provid objectivity. But this is all a mysterious and magical blend of objective engineering and subjective experience. That said, the DC4 is no small, subtle change. It is not some kind of some people may here this or placebo type of thing.... I have had cables like that, where you cannot be sure and keep asking yourself "am I really hearing this." Oh no. There is no need for back and forth. Plug the DC4 into your Dave and a new world opens.

Yes, my HMS is currently powered by MCRU power supply. The MSB was a Reference and no the Chord system was KO. Not close. But I would hope so for that price. However, the dCS Vivaldi system was close and we felt the Chord system outshone it in some areas--more resolving and "crystalline" and a nicer timber. But the Vivaldi with the clock is smoother. I would say that this system competes withe the Vivaldi alone in a serious way, but is bested by the Vivaldi with its clock and upsampler, but again you would hope so for the price. Overall, considering the cost of HMS+ Wave cables + Dave + DC4, I am very pleased with how it fared against these giants....

I think the Chord was KO because you have no pre amp. The MSB stack must have had the preamp and volume control built in option along with mono power base?

 

[Ciggavelli]

It is an easy mod. I am so clumsy and have no experience. I did put the cable guard in upside down, but realized it soon and switched. All in all it is an easy process. And should you want to sell the Dave one day, returning the original power supply is also easy enough. I wouldnt say it is a necessary upgrade. Nothing is. I would call the Wave cables far more necessary than the DC4 if you have an Mscaler.... This all depends on usage and other factors. If you are using Dave for heaphones, I probably wouldnt consider this at all. If you are using it for speakers and can afford the upgrade, it is more than worth it. As I said, I had friends bring over a dCS vivaldi, which is way more than the Dave with Mscaler, Wave cables and DC4 and in some areas the Dave outshone (we all agreed). This wouldn't be true without the Mscaler, Wave cables and DC4....

I have no idea about measurements vs. subject experience and linnear vs other types of power. In the end, I try to enjoy the process of building and improving a system, learning and, of course, in the end, the music is all there is to it. It is nice when measurements align with that and provid objectivity. But this is all a mysterious and magical blend of objective engineering and subjective experience. That said, the DC4 is no small, subtle change. It is not some kind of some people may here this or placebo type of thing.... I have had cables like that, where you cannot be sure and keep asking yourself "am I really hearing this." Oh no. There is no need for back and forth. Plug the DC4 into your Dave and a new world opens.

I’m curious, why do you think the power supply upgrade isn’t worth it if you only listen to headphones?

 

[sm60]

The other question is if it makes sense to invest thousands in modifying digital tech that will soon be obsolete or replaced by a newer version?

I couldn’t have put it better. My sense is most folks, including yours truly, spend far too much money on parts of the chain that are already near perfection (e.g., digital front end, amplifiers), and far less on things that really make a difference (e.g., room correction and treatment, live music, speakers). All said and done, the most colored components in your system are your room and speakers or headphones, and spending lots of money on external power supplies for the Dave will not fix the glaring problems with your room or speakers, which dwarf any with the stock power supply in the Dave.

My most significant upgrade recently was getting a pair of the ultra massive REL G1 Mk2 subwoofers (or as REL likes to call them, sub bass systems because they respond to below 15 Hz). I was lucky to pick up a brand new pair for nearly half price, which is a bit higher than what the DC4 goes for. These are large subs, weighing almost a 100 pounds each and take up a lot of room. They are designed to go in the corners of your listening room, behind your main full range speakers. Crossovers are set very low, around 35 Hz or lower. They dramatically im[prove the sound of my Quad 2905s or my Harbeth 40.1s, both full range speakers. The reproduction of the ambience in a concert hall is now literally jaw dropping. Before the first notes begin, you literally hear the concert hall itself, almost breathing in an atmospheric way. These are easily the best subs I’ve ever heard, and in the past, I’ve hated subs as they invariably impose a midrange coloration. These are impossible to localize, and completely unflappable. Organ music is as you’d expect heart stopping in its raw power. Every type of music benefits from their presence. I’m glad I got these. Given a choice, I’d rather have invested in high end subs like these rather than the DC4. But not everyone has the space to house such large subs!

 

[Sampajanna]

I think the Chord was KO because you have no pre amp. The MSB stack must have had the preamp and volume control built in option along with mono power base?

Yes, it did have all that.

 

[Sampajanna]

I’m curious, why do you think the power supply upgrade isn’t worth it if you only listen to headphones?

I am sure it would improve things viz a viz headphines as well. It just makes for a big headphone set up. I would recommend the Cayin HA300 amp instead or along with teh DC4

 

[muski]

Just to be clear, DAVE requires a power supply with 3 DC outputs (5v, 15v and -15v), which is why you need the 3-regulator-board DC4, which considerably adds to the cost.
The DC4 package for DAVE envelopes these 3 outputs into a single cable with multi-pinned plug for convenience.

The HMS only needs a single 15v output supply because it already has a DC input socket with a stock external SMPS that does the AC->DC conversion.

So a power supply to power both DAVE and HMS would need to have 4 regulator boards, which is pushing it at the best of times, and is anyway not recommended for DAVE+HMS as onlychild has mentioned.

Quite possibly, the DC power supply inside the HMS also splits the incoming 15v into different sub-voltages, but I suspect it would be harder, and with diminishing returns, to try to break into that, which only the maddest, craziest audiophile would ever contemplate doing .

Just to remind everyone that the stock power supplies in DAVE and HMS do their job very well. The tweaks we are talking about would apply to just about any other high end component, but some components respond more successfully to certain upgrades.

Thanks. Extremely informative and helpful!

 

[Sampajanna]

I couldn’t have put it better. My sense is most folks, including yours truly, spend far too much money on parts of the chain that are already near perfection (e.g., digital front end, amplifiers), and far less on things that really make a difference (e.g., room correction and treatment, live music, speakers). All said and done, the most colored components in your system are your room and speakers or headphones, and spending lots of money on external power supplies for the Dave will not fix the glaring problems with your room or speakers, which dwarf any with the stock power supply in the Dave.

My most significant upgrade recently was getting a pair of the ultra massive REL G1 Mk2 subwoofers (or as REL likes to call them, sub bass systems because they respond to below 15 Hz). I was lucky to pick up a brand new pair for nearly half price, which is a bit higher than what the DC4 goes for. These are large subs, weighing almost a 100 pounds each and take up a lot of room. They are designed to go in the corners of your listening room, behind your main full range speakers. Crossovers are set very low, around 35 Hz or lower. They dramatically im[prove the sound of my Quad 2905s or my Harbeth 40.1s, both full range speakers. The reproduction of the ambience in a concert hall is now literally jaw dropping. Before the first notes begin, you literally hear the concert hall itself, almost breathing in an atmospheric way. These are easily the best subs I’ve ever heard, and in the past, I’ve hated subs as they invariably impose a midrange coloration. These are impossible to localize, and completely unflappable. Organ music is as you’d expect heart stopping in its raw power. Every type of music benefits from their presence. I’m glad I got these. Given a choice, I’d rather have invested in high end subs like these rather than the DC4. But not everyone has the space to house such large subs!

I agree with this. Room and speakers and then amps and then the digital side last... I think that is why I said that maybe the DC4 is more useful in a speaker system than in a headphone. Once you do have speakers and subs, nice amps etc, you start to tweak things to bring out their best, this includes isolation, cabling and power. I think the isolation, cabling and power together arent like another component, but rather allow your components to shine more gloriously. Like a great tennis racket wont help me, who has never played tennis, beat Nadal; and Nadal can play just fine with a crappy old racket, but you take a Nadal and give him an expensive racket and he can put it to good use for an edge that improves his playing....

While speaking of isolation, the HMS is a jitterbug. You will be blown away by what isolation does for this. Even some great and cheap Isoacoustics Graphite will do the trick and make a huge difference...

 

[edwardsean]

I agree with this. Room and speakers and then amps and then the digital side last... I think that is why I said that maybe the DC4 is more useful in a speaker system than in a headphone.

I would respectfully add that the opposite argument also makes sense. I agree that, for a speaker setup, upgrades in speakers, amps, room, etc. would make a far larger difference. There's just more that calls for investment before tackling the power supply in the DAC.

However, if you are happy with the Dave and your headphones and cable, there's less to improve there. If you want to upgrade the system, you have to look at your front end going into the Dave and the power you are supplying to it.

 

[Sampajanna]

I would respectfully add that the opposite argument also makes sense. I agree that, for a speaker setup, upgrades in speakers, amps, room, etc. would make a far larger difference. There's just more that calls for investment before tackling the power supply in the DAC.

However, if you are happy with the Dave and your headphones and cable, there's less to improve there. If you want to upgrade the system, you have to look at your front end going into the Dave and the power you are supplying to it.

Quit true indeed. Very different experiences, speaker to headphone and very different setup, investment strategy, etc.

 

[Ciggavelli]

I am sure it would improve things viz a viz headphines as well. It just makes for a big headphone set up. I would recommend the Cayin HA300 amp instead or along with teh DC4

Thanks for the info! I’m not too concerned with how big the setup is. I have a Woo Audio wa33 elite headphone amp with JPS wiring. I am very happy with the sound, but I’m always looking for improvements. I guess it’s that audiophile addiction kicking in...hahaha

I think an upgraded dac could further improve my setup. Have you tried the dCS Rossini with the master clock? How does it compare to the DAVE with the DC4?

 

[voldemortnbk]

For those who couldn't afford Sean DC4, get someone DIY for you a Linear PSU will work also, still better than the stock SMPS. This one size is about the same as DAVE.