CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE

[jelt2359]

Both USB and Toslink are galvanically isolated.  USB is superior to all other inputs because it is the only input that is synchronously tied to DAVE's clock.  The other inputs have to go through DPLL first which according to Rob results in a small but noticeable degradation in sound quality.  Having personally tested all of DAVE's inputs, none of them sound horrible but USB does sound best.  Toslink is 2nd best because of its RF isolation.  With AES and SPDIF, the quality of the cables used and its ability to reject RF becomes especially important.  Despite my best efforts, I have not succeeded in getting BNC/SPDIF to sound as good as USB or Toslink but I am still waiting for my prototype USB-to-SPDIF converter to arrive.  I also have a High Fidelity Cables SPDIF cable coming in.  

Rob has suggested in prior posts that he could synchronously tie the other inputs to DAVE's clock to make them equivalent to USB but this would require a code update.  Hopefully, this will one day happen.

Bnc update for Dave would be useful given that's how the blu2 needs to be used.

Having spoken with Tom Vaughan, one of Chord's engineers who walked me through Hugo 2's feature set at CES, he described the "Hugo" and "Hugo HF+" filters as being roughly equivalent to "DAVE without HF" and "DAVE with HF", respectively.  Having spoken to Rob about this, the Hugo and Hugo HF+ filters are a further optimized version of DAVE's filters meaning that they are actually better than DAVE's filters.  If I recall correctly, should someone buy an M-scaler for their DAVE, Rob's improved filtering will already be incorporated into M-scaler and is a key reason why the M-scaler sounds better than one would expect from just a 6x increase in TAPS.  In Rob's words, "it's not just the number of TAPS, it's how you use those TAPS."  With M-scaler, there will be no toggle between "HF on" and "HF off" because M-scaler will only sound best one way -- with HF off.

Filters in Hugo2 now better than Dave.

 



It seems Chord is using "Mojo" and "Hugo" rather than DAVE to describe the four filters in Hugo 2. I'm sure that was a conscious marketing decision. This is taken from Chord's Hugo 2 product page: 



 



[COLOR=333333]Filters (Digital):[/color]

• Hugo (Ultimate Reference) (White)
  
• Hugo HF+ (High Frequency roll off) (Green)
  
• Mojo (‘Smooth’) (Orange)
  
• Mojo HF+ (High Frequency roll off) (Red)
  

Choice of filters "Mojo" and "Hugo" in Hugo2, but not in Dave.

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The combination of these three things occurring now makes me think a firmware update is likely. Better to send our units in to upgrade a few things at once!

Also these upgrades tend to follow cycles. We just entered a new cycle with the release of Hugo2 so it is probably the right time. Another possible time could be after Davina, depending on what Rob learns has been done to the signal by other ADCs, there could be code improvements to further improve the Dave performance. But I doubt this- I don't think it's a secret how other ADCs work.

 

[x RELIC x]

Bnc update for Dave would be useful given that's how the blu2 needs to be used.
Filters in Hugo2 now better than Dave.
Choice of filters "Mojo" and "Hugo" in Hugo2, but not in Dave.

---

The combination of these three things occurring now makes me think a firmware update is likely. Better to send our units in to upgrade a few things at once!

Also these upgrades tend to follow cycles. We just entered a new cycle with the release of Hugo2 so it is probably the right time. Another possible time could be after Davina, depending on what Rob learns has been done to the signal by other ADCs, there could be code improvements to further improve the Dave performance. But I doubt this- I don't think it's a secret how other ADCs work.

Ah, so you're making assumptions. :rolleyes:

We can hope (if there's an improvement with the DAVE), right! :wink_face:

 

[Triode User]

Has this firmware update been verified to happen or are we just wishful thinking?

 
I thought I saw one of the Chord guys on here stating that they didn't do firmware upgrades and that they were always working on new stuff that sounded better but as and when it was finalised it became a new model rather than a software/firmware upgrade to am existing model. I'm happy to be put right though.

 

[jelt2359]

Hugo and 2 Qute won't have any upgrades. The knowledge gained from Dave means it will only work with more gates, so Hugo platform is pretty much optimum given the size of the FPGA.

Dave is possible to have an upgrade, but this would be back to distributor or Chord. I will only do an upgrade if we can make an improvement that is substantial though. Since my FPGA technology is maturing, its less likely to have one though. The DAC 64 had a lot of changes, QBD less, Qute even less, Hugo none...

Rob

I believe this is the post being referred to with respect to upgrades. I personally feel that what we see in the Hugo2, and in terms of the bnc linking to the clock, counts as "substantial" improvements

 

[Triode User]

I believe this is the post being referred to with respect to upgrades. I personally feel that what we see in the Hugo2, and in terms of the bnc linking to the clock, counts as "substantial" improvements

OK, I've been put right! Thanks.

 

[DaveRedRef-III]

Interesting to hear Chord projecting a more cautious expectation for Davina release (or not). Implies to me at least that Rob will be suitably stretched in other directions this year. This would be understandable as like any company, Chord must focus on the projects they feel have the most potential in terms of sales. When you have something special, monetise it! The amps we already know about. High-end streaming product perhaps?

I'll just be happy with Blu2 for 2017 (plus some much needed acoustic treatment in my room. So as to appreciate fully what it has to offer)

Then perhaps the more powerful amps will be on offer in 2018? That would suit me fine.

 

[Kamil21]

Interesting to hear Chord projecting a more cautious expectation for Davina release (or not). Implies to me at least that Rob will be suitably stretched in other directions this year. This would be understandable as like any company, Chord must focus on the projects they feel have the most potential in terms of sales. When you have something special, monetise it! The amps we already know about. High-end streaming product perhaps?

I'll just be happy with Blu2 for 2017 (plus some much needed acoustic treatment in my room. So as to appreciate fully what it has to offer)

Then perhaps the more powerful amps will be on offer in 2018? That would suit me fine.

I'm trying to understand. Where have Chord said that they are placing a lesser priority i.e. " projecting a more cautious expectation" on Davina?

 

[DaveRedRef-III]

Kamil21
I said that was the implication I took from it. So in no way stated as a fact. These are very busy times for Chord and I would expect they need to balance their time. Davina was always stated by Rob as being a low volume product. Just my interpretation Kamil.

From Mojo ideas
"The Davina is only one development program that Rob is working on. It may not become a product for a year or even far more. It really should not have been so loudly trumpeted. Because really when talked about it was mostly theory and speculation that still had to be designed built, tested and thoroughly proved. We at Chord would prefer that only products that are fully developed are discussed but we do understand that having a good sounding board like HeadFi is a very valuable asset that informs our design process"

 

[Kamil21]

Kamil21
I said that was the implication I took from it. So in no way stated as a fact. These are very busy times for Chord and I would expect they need to balance their time. Davina was always stated by Rob as being a low volume product. Just my interpretation Kamil.

From Mojo ideas
"The Davina is only one development program that Rob is working on. It may not become a product for a year or even far more. It really should not have been so loudly trumpeted. Because really when talked about it was mostly theory and speculation that still had to be designed built, tested and thoroughly proved. We at Chord would prefer that only products that are fully developed are discussed but we do understand that having a good sounding board like HeadFi is a very valuable asset that informs our design process"

Ah yes! I missed that post

 

[EVOLVIST]

I would guess that the new digital amp coming from Chord would be a class D amp?

And didn't Rob say, when running to an external amp that he prefers going RCA over XLR from the DAVE?

 

[Rob Watts]

I would guess that the new digital amp coming from Chord would be a class D amp?

And didn't Rob say, when running to an external amp that he prefers going RCA over XLR from the DAVE?

No way is it Class D!
 
The biggest lesson I learnt from Dave was the importance of very tiny timing errors over small periods - we need timing to be close to perfect at tens of nS level. You simply can't get this from a switching amp as the fastest Class D I have done is at 1.6 MHz - and even at that ultra fast rate would still give significant timing errors even after the reconstruction filters on the PWM output stage.
 
So no it's linear Class A, with no output reconstruction filters. But there are some interesting things happening on the power supply.... And like all my DAC's, is a single amp with one global feedback path.
 
As to balanced or RCA - it depends on the power amp, but mostly RCA is best.
 
Rob 

 

[EVOLVIST]

No way is it Class D!

The biggest lesson I learnt from Dave was the importance of very tiny timing errors over small periods - we need timing to be close to perfect at tens of nS level. You simply can't get this from a switching amp as the fastest Class D I have done is at 1.6 MHz - and even at that ultra fast rate would still give significant timing errors even after the reconstruction filters on the PWM output stage.

So no it's linear Class A, with no output reconstruction filters. But there are some interesting things happening on the power supply.... And like all my DAC's, is a single amp with one global feedback path.

As to balanced or RCA - it depends on the power amp, but mostly RCA is best.

Rob 

Hey, Rob, thanks. I'm just kind of wondering if I go the speakers route why not pick up on the used market a SPM 1200 mk II to use with the DAVE, or do you think that the new amp will make THAT much of a difference? I mean, every review of that model has been stellar. I just wonder how holographic and fast an amp can actually get, you know?

Granted, I'm just getting into the topic of speakers, having always been a headphone guy. This past Saturday I heard a Mytek Brooklyn DAC going into a D-sonic amp, which fed into some Eggleston Works Andra II loudspeakers, and for the first time in my 43 years, after hearing hundreds of speaker setups I was so moved that I didn't want to listen through cans again. It sounded so natural and so fast. There wasn't even any room correction.

I love Chord and want to check out Chord options, but I reckon these had a lot to do with the 17 year old Egglestons, which were tops!

Next weekend I'm taking my DAVE over and replacing the Mytek to hear the difference.

 

[ecwl]

This past Saturday I heard a Mytek Brooklyn DAC going into a D-sonic amp, which fed into some Eggleston Works Andra II loudspeakers, and for the first time in my 43 years, after hearing hundreds of speaker setups I was so moved that I didn't want to listen through cans again. It sounded so natural and so fast. There wasn't even any room correction.

I'd be careful about what made this speaker setup better sounding than others. I've listened to other Eggleston Works speakers. They are very nice but I'm not sure if they're far superior to other brands. The Andra II does reach lower into the bass region which may be the reason why it sounds better. But more likely, you're appreciating the superior physical setup and room acoustics. That means if you don't put the same effort at home, the Andra II or any other speakers would not sound as good once moved to your own home.
 
I believe D-sonic amps are class D amplifiers. While I have heard class D amplifiers sound good with Chord DACs, as Rob Watts said, the timing is lost. The problem is, until you actually compare it to class A or class AB amplifiers, you may not know what you're missing. A friend got a 2Qute and paired it with an older pair of Wyred4Sound class D amplifiers. He recently upgraded to the new Bryston 4B3 and he said it was night and day.

 

[Mojo ideas]

Has this firmware update been verified to happen or are we just wishful thinking?

There is no need for any up dates to the Dave software.

 

[Triode User]

There is no need for any up dates to the Dave software.

That's what I call a definitive end of discussion answer from the horse's mouth!!