[Christer]

Very interesting post—I think you're on to something.

My Sonore/SGC setup allows me to run Roon, HQP & LMS on the sonicTransporter i9 optical server, and then quickly switch the opticalRendu between the Roon, HQP and Squeezelite endpoint apps. Much to my surprise there is a noticeable difference. After a few hours of critical listening, I came to agree with your ranking. To my ears there was greater clarity with the LMS (and no harshness), and the soundstage was noticeably wider.

Shocking that LMS still wins after all these years. In 2006 I made my first serious foray into digital audio with a Slimdevices Transporter feeding a Headroom Max Balanced amp. I still have that system boxed up in the garage. Makes me wonder what it would sound like fed by an opticalRendu->PhoenixUSB->M Scaler chain...

cheers,
muski

Hmm...
What are MPD and LMS?
The only two players except iTunes, which sucks sq wise, I am familair with are Pure Music and Audirvana which I use on my mbp.

Are the Innous or any other Streamers compatible with those two?

I still have ZERO, ZIP, NADA interest in any of the subscription based Tidal, Roon, alternatives.
I want to pay once only and be done with it!

I may have said so before, but I have auditioned Roon on a VERY expensive and good system with my reference material and I was not overly impressed.
Audirvana or Pure Music sounded more transparent to me.
As far as Innous Streamers are concerned I have only auditioned one of those and I can´t remember which model it was. So maybe I did not hear their best one. But again with one of my reference recordings ripped onto it, the cd layer of the SACD did not impress me much either.
Definitely harsher and not as realisitic as the DSD 64 SACD or DSD 64 native file via my mbp and Audirvana. The cd via that streamer sounded as a cd without mscaling,ie. not very good.
But this was a few years ago and I am a bit curious to hear why so many laud them so much now.

But ideally I would like to try optical via a Streamer since optical can sound so good via optical out to Mscaler from my cd players.
Most Streamers only do usb don´t they?
It also seems like a bit weird to pay roughly half the price of an Mscaler for the Innous Phoenix to improve usb,if optical avoids the problem usb creates anyway?

Cheers CC

 

[LucyWu]

The optical out from my iBasso DX200 into MScaler sounds the equal of the USB input (within the data rate limits of the optical interface itself). But the poor user interface on the DAP, along with limited storage (I have a 256gb SD card installed) make it way less useable than using a tablet running a remote app for Audirvana or LMS.

Optical out of pc seems rare these days as a standard motherboard option. You could add in a decent PCIE soundcard (EVGA Nu Audio for example) with a optical port, but I am not convinced this offers much benefit over - say - a Mutec MC3+ USB (which will probably have a better jitter performance if that makes any difference) except cost. All the PCIE sound cards interface using USB protocols within the computer, so you aren't bypassing usb, just the run of cable to the MScaler.

If I am going optical (or SPDIF on coax) I would prefer to skip the USB mechanism entirely and get the data natively. SD Card reader transports may offer this (Auralic Aries G series may offer this, but I can't find definite information) - read the bits, code them directly into the SPDIF bitstream and pump them out to the dac. With a decent clock this should be optimal. But again, decent transport options which do this (SoundAware, Chord 2go/2yu if it gets released) are thin on the ground.

 

[alxw0w]

All the PCIE sound cards interface using USB protocols within the computer, so you aren't bypassing usb, just the run of cable to the MScaler

You are completely wrong with that.

 

[LucyWu]

I'd be interested to know which PCIE cards skip the USB interface. Not the EVGA, not the Creative or Asus cards - all use a USB interface embedded on the card.

Maybe pro-audio but they are initially less appealing because they are burdened with a lot of (in this use case) useless functionality.

 

[Triode User]

Hmm...
What are MPD and LMS?
The only two players except iTunes, which sucks sq wise, I am familair with are Pure Music and Audirvana which I use on my mbp.

Are the Innous or any other Streamers compatible with those two?

I still have ZERO, ZIP, NADA interest in any of the subscription based Tidal, Roon, alternatives.
I want to pay once only and be done with it!

I may have said so before, but I have auditioned Roon on a VERY expensive and good system with my reference material and I was not overly impressed.
Audirvana or Pure Music sounded more transparent to me.
As far as Innous Streamers are concerned I have only auditioned one of those and I can´t remember which model it was. So maybe I did not hear their best one. But again with one of my reference recordings ripped onto it, the cd layer of the SACD did not impress me much either.
Definitely harsher and not as realisitic as the DSD 64 SACD or DSD 64 native file via my mbp and Audirvana. The cd via that streamer sounded as a cd without mscaling,ie. not very good.
But this was a few years ago and I am a bit curious to hear why so many laud them so much now.

But ideally I would like to try optical via a Streamer since optical can sound so good via optical out to Mscaler from my cd players.
Most Streamers only do usb don´t they?
It also seems like a bit weird to pay roughly half the price of an Mscaler for the Innous Phoenix to improve usb,if optical avoids the problem usb creates anyway?

Cheers CC

CC, each manufacturer has their view on things. Innuos say that having measured noise in boards connect by optical or USB they concluded that there was more noise in the receiving board when it used an optical connection. That is why they only use USB on their higher end products.

Whilst I agree that optical connection is a good go to solution in many respects, I also agree with Innuos and ultimately I prefer USB to connect my streamer/server to the Mscaler or DAC rather than optical.

I also have an Antipodes streamer / server and that also does not have an optical output, nor does the current flavour of the month, the Taiko Extreme. Obviously these guys might have got it completely wrong in forgoing optical outputs but one would like to think they had thought long and hard before deciding not to offer it even as an option.

As always the paying customer must decide based on what they hear and can then take their cheque book wherever they feel happiest.

 

[nagi8404]

I’ve had the DAVE for a while now, so I’d like to share my experience with it. My DAC journey started from the SMSL SU-8, then up to the RME ADI-2 DAC, before arriving at the DAVE. I’m no writer so excuse me if this sounds like a ramble. All comparisons are done after volume matching to an error of 0.2 decibels.

Chain: Mac Mini (Roon/TIDAL) > Lumin U1 Mini > DACs > Luxman P-750uL > Utopia/HD800s

Unlike headphone amplifiers, my ears tend to not pick up differences in DACs as easily as I expected. The differences are subtle and unless I’m listening closely the differences are not obvious. Upon first listen I was not impressed with the DAVE, my reaction was “that’s it?” as I expected to be very blown away. Nevertheless, I kept listening with the DAVE and after a week or so I switched back to my lesser DACs and that’s where things became interesting.

Switching back to the SU-8 I noticed that there’s some sort of haze and grittiness to the music. Listening to classical music instruments don’t separate as clearly, violins and piano sound cold and greyish. DAVE’s rendition of timbre sounded more natural and lifelike, turning recordings from just a “recording” to a performance. Vocals don’t sound like they’re recorded out of a microphone (even though they are) and it felt as if the vocalist is singing and reaching out to me. I learned that rapid switching between DACs is sometimes not always the best way to compare. So, when I switched back to the SU-8 after an extended session with the DAVE, I can’t help it but miss the DAVE.

Compared with the RME, again the DAVE wins out when it comes to naturalness. The RME, while rocking an AKM chip to me sounded sterile as if music is seen through a light blue tinted glass, though less cold than the SU-8 with its ESS chip. I was listening to Trace Bundy’s Adapt and Rodrigo y Gabriela’s Mettavolution, each plucking and tapping of the guitar is more physical with the DAVE. While I noted no significant difference in soundstage, there is more space between instruments and layers in the music, leading to better perception of depth and separation. I’m also a firm believer that all DACs today will present to you all the details in a music, but details just pop out a smidge more with the DAVE.

One feature that I gladly welcomed in the DAVE and RME was crossfeed. I felt the two had different implementation so it’s worth mentioning. With DAVE’s crossfeed, it extends music that’s around your head and pulls it forward in front of you. To me engaging crossfeed improves depth perception, layer separation, and holographic imaging. RME’s crossfeed on the other hand takes a 2-dimensional sound and just presents it in front of you at a distance but still sounds 2-dimensional. Once you get used to DAVE’s crossfeed it’s hard to go back.

Apologies if my words are vague, DACs have really progressed to a point where differences are very hard to tell apart to the untrained ears. With the addition of the DAVE to my rack, I’m learning ways to tell my gear apart. The rabbit hole goes down deeper still, I have yet to experience the M Scaler and there are upgrade paths for DAVE's power supply???

 

[alxw0w]

I’ve had the DAVE for a while now, so I’d like to share my experience with it. My DAC journey started from the SMSL SU-8, then up to the RME ADI-2 DAC, before arriving at the DAVE. I’m no writer so excuse me if this sounds like a ramble. All comparisons are done after volume matching to an error of 0.2 decibels.

Chain: Mac Mini (Roon/TIDAL) > Lumin U1 Mini > DACs > Luxman P-750uL > Utopia/HD800s

Unlike headphone amplifiers, my ears tend to not pick up differences in DACs as easily as I expected. The differences are subtle and unless I’m listening closely the differences are not obvious. Upon first listen I was not impressed with the DAVE, my reaction was “that’s it?” as I expected to be very blown away. Nevertheless, I kept listening with the DAVE and after a week or so I switched back to my lesser DACs and that’s where things became interesting.

Switching back to the SU-8 I noticed that there’s some sort of haze and grittiness to the music. Listening to classical music instruments don’t separate as clearly, violins and piano sound cold and greyish. DAVE’s rendition of timbre sounded more natural and lifelike, turning recordings from just a “recording” to a performance. Vocals don’t sound like they’re recorded out of a microphone (even though they are) and it felt as if the vocalist is singing and reaching out to me. I learned that rapid switching between DACs is sometimes not always the best way to compare. So, when I switched back to the SU-8 after an extended session with the DAVE, I can’t help it but miss the DAVE.

Compared with the RME, again the DAVE wins out when it comes to naturalness. The RME, while rocking an AKM chip to me sounded sterile as if music is seen through a light blue tinted glass, though less cold than the SU-8 with its ESS chip. I was listening to Trace Bundy’s Adapt and Rodrigo y Gabriela’s Mettavolution, each plucking and tapping of the guitar is more physical with the DAVE. While I noted no significant difference in soundstage, there is more space between instruments and layers in the music, leading to better perception of depth and separation. I’m also a firm believer that all DACs today will present to you all the details in a music, but details just pop out a smidge more with the DAVE.

One feature that I gladly welcomed in the DAVE and RME was crossfeed. I felt the two had different implementation so it’s worth mentioning. With DAVE’s crossfeed, it extends music that’s around your head and pulls it forward in front of you. To me engaging crossfeed improves depth perception, layer separation, and holographic imaging. RME’s crossfeed on the other hand takes a 2-dimensional sound and just presents it in front of you at a distance but still sounds 2-dimensional. Once you get used to DAVE’s crossfeed it’s hard to go back.

Apologies if my words are vague, DACs have really progressed to a point where differences are very hard to tell apart to the untrained ears. With the addition of the DAVE to my rack, I’m learning ways to tell my gear apart. The rabbit hole goes down deeper still, I have yet to experience the M Scaler and there are upgrade paths for DAVE's power supply???

You should also try to make comparison like this:
Dave -> Focal Utopia (straight connection without luxman)
RME/SMSL -> Luxman P-750uL -> Focal Utopia

With straight connection differences should be even more noticeable.

 

[Articnoise]

You should also try to make comparison like this:
Dave -> Focal Utopia (straight connection without luxman)
RME/SMSL -> Luxman P-750uL -> Focal Utopia

With straight connection differences should be even more noticeable.

Maybe more noticeable but perhaps not a better sonic match.

 

[NYanakiev]

Any recommendations for a stand for DAVE and the Mscaler? Love the look of Chord's Ensemble stand but the price is a bit of a turn-off.
Not to mention reports that the angle DAVE sits at is problematic if one is using more heavy duty cables.

Thanks!

 

[alxw0w]

Here is my current poors man choral stand
If somebody is interested - pm me for link

 

[Triode User]

Any recommendations for a stand for DAVE and the Mscaler? Love the look of Chord's Ensemble stand but the price is a bit of a turn-off.
Not to mention reports that the angle DAVE sits at is problematic if one is using more heavy duty cables.

Thanks!

I just put my Dave on a table and with the Mscaler on the floor underneath! You will see if you venture out of the 'smoke' and come to visit in Leicestershire!.

 

[NYanakiev]

I just put my Dave on a table and with the Mscaler on the floor underneath! You will see if you venture out of the 'smoke' and come to visit in Leicestershire!.

I certainly look forward to it! Got some exotic power supplies and cables to put to the test!

 

[voldemortnbk]

Here is my current poors man choral stand
If somebody is interested - pm me for link

Clever for using monitor lift stand as dac stand.

 

[tunes]

Looking for a straight wire amp without sacrifice of detail provided by DAVE to drive more power hungry headphones like Abyss TC or Susvara as one of my next purchases but the current recommended amps are more than $5K. Have you heard anything about the Aries headphone amp from SparkoS Labs $2.5k? Is it powerful enough for Susvara? I don’t want to have to buy a speaker amp and run off taps.

 

[Ragnar-BY]

current recommended amps are more than $5K

The downside of owning great DAC - cheap amps won’t fit

It’s pretty hard to find something that would be good partner for Susvara and DAVE under 5K. You’ll have more choices with speaker amps.