[supervisor]

If you get a 2yu ahead of the rest of us, please do post your experiences against desktop servers (Aurender, Innuous, etc.)

haven't ordered a 2yu but I will sell my Innuos Zenith mk3 in an instant if people are saying it sounds better!

 

[edwardsean]

The streaming options have been removed from GoFigure, go figure , I don't think they ever worked properly.

Using mconnect to stream from Tidal is probably just another option, the audio will be exactly the same as using Airplay.

In my experience whe using mconnect to play Tidal you can choose to operate either UPnP protocol or Airplay. Imho UPnP sounds better then Airplay. Still direct SD card playback using directly gofigure or rigelian (mpd protocol) gives the best sound quality in case of H2go (better then Tidal streaming).

In that case, I’m just going to stick with Airplay, and probably then also make the switch to Apple Music. Even if UPnP sounds better, the difference sounded pretty slight to me through my Omega speakers.

When I want to listen seriously I’ll buy the track in wav file and download it to SD card, as I agree that this gives the best sound quality. For me, any streaming service is for exploring, “grazing,” and casual background music. So, the interface, experience, and accessibility is more important.

Thanks for helping me resolve this!

 

[SteveHulk]

In that case, I’m just going to stick with Airplay, and probably then also make the switch to Apple Music. Even if UPnP sounds better, the difference sounded pretty slight to me through my Omega speakers.

When I want to listen seriously I’ll buy the track in wav file and download it to SD card, as I agree that this gives the best sound quality. For me, any streaming service is for exploring, “grazing,” and casual background music. So, the interface, experience, and accessibility is more important.

Thanks for helping me resolve this!

I'm not sure there is any audio difference between WAV and FLAC.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that WAV doesn't handle id3 tags properly if indeed it handles them at all.

 

[Daniel Johnston]

I'm not sure there is any audio difference between WAV and FLAC.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that WAV doesn't handle id3 tags properly if indeed it handles them at all.

You are correct. You can't tag WAV easily. Some software will recognize id3 and WAV, but it isn't as universal as FLAC or ALAC.

Not sure how one lossless sounds better than the other.

 

[TKpurple]

I dont know if its universal rule but on some very high end systems i Heard wave sounded better then flac. I dont know what would be the reason. Hovewer all music which leaves music production studiów is in wave format.

 

[edwardsean]

I'm not sure there is any audio difference between WAV and FLAC.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that WAV doesn't handle id3 tags properly if indeed it handles them at all.

Right, I'm just calling them wav files because wav is more common place. I use AIFF.

I dont know if its universal rule but on some very high end systems i Heard wave sounded better then flac. I dont know what would be the reason. Hovewer all music which leaves music production studiów is in wave format.

Right, not to open up a long protracted discussion, but "bits are bits" only in theory. It's like saying machines don't make mistakes people do. In the real world computers overheat, codes have bugs and glitch out. In the real audio world, lossless bits travel through chips, wires, and waves and suffer artifacts and interference.

So I find that as a rule, bits are never bits, and nothing is ever really bit-perfect or lossless. The same 44.1Khz file played from 2Go local SD is also clearly better than streamed over airplay (or PC/Mac USB for that matter), even though airplay also uses lossless compression.

There is plenty of discussion here on Headfi, AS, and elsewhere on this, but for myself, there is a clear difference between wavs and Flac/Alac. The best reason that I've heard is that the added processing of unfolding the compression adds noise to the system. As stated above, music is produced in wav/aiff files and is not compressed in the first place, though it is resampled (bits are never bits).

I'm honestly not sure how much of this explanation covers the difference I'm hearing. It could be, and probably is, more complex. However, in audio, it usually comes down to noise or timing one way or another. If you have run tests and hear no difference in your system, then there is no need to worry about it. And, in the tests I've run, worry always gets in the way of enjoying the music. Worry is "lossy" psychoacoustically (grin).

 

[Daniel Johnston]

Right, I'm just calling them wav files because wav is more common place. I use AIFF.

Right, not to open up a long protracted discussion, but "bits are bits" only in theory. It's like saying machines don't make mistakes people do. In the real world computers overheat, codes have bugs and glitch out. In the real audio world, lossless bits travel through chips, wires, and waves and suffer artifacts and interference.

So I find that as a rule, bits are never bits, and nothing is ever really bit-perfect or lossless. The same 44.1Khz file played from 2Go local SD is also clearly better than streamed over airplay (or PC/Mac USB for that matter), even though airplay also uses lossless compression.

There is plenty of discussion here on Headfi, AS, and elsewhere on this, but for myself, there is a clear difference between wavs and Flac/Alac. The best reason that I've heard is that the added processing of unfolding the compression adds noise to the system. As stated above, music is produced in wav/aiff files and is not compressed in the first place, though it is resampled (bits are never bits).

I'm honestly not sure how much of this explanation covers the difference I'm hearing. It could be, and probably is, more complex. However, in audio, it usually comes down to noise or timing one way or another. If you have run tests and hear no difference in your system, then there is no need to worry about it. And, in the tests I've run, worry always gets in the way of enjoying the music. Worry is "lossy" psychoacoustically (grin).

I whole heartedly agree that Airplay and native SD playback of the same file are fairly easy to hear.

However, Roon streaming vs SD direct is indistinguishable to me.

In the end, storage is cheap. If you feel happier with all uncompressed WAV, that's cool.

 

[pkny]

Totally agree with edwardsean. Here is my basic understanding of digital signal:
Perfect digital signal means perfect square waveform, which I have never seen in any real world scenario. How computers and networks work perfectly are heavily relied on error correction and in pure digital form (doesn't need to covert to analog). In audio, first of all, there is no error correction in s/pdif or UAC (but there are some special cases. According to Rob Watts, the Chord Windows driver will resend faulty packet. So, Hugo2's USB can have error correction). Second, the imperfect of the digital signal (shark fin waveform) can affect the timing in the D/A conversion. Third, any noise generated from the digital side can affect the RFI/EMI sensitivity analog components.

At the end, I just trust my ears. If I hear a different, go with the way I prefer. If I don't hear a different, that is great, and I am not going to worry about it.

 

[Luvdac]

I have my entire tb's of music library in wav and all meticulously tagged using mp3tag.
The days when wav was a tagless format are long gone but admittedly my car audio system won't build a library from wav files. No problems so far with the portable players I own such as the plenue 1, onkyo dps1, a&k Kann and various sony players.
Yes, I definitely do hear a difference for the better with wav over flac.

 

[Jimjim77]

A first feedback of my experience with the couple 2yu/2Go connected to my Qutest.
First thing I want to say it’s the Gofigure app and the user experience is just awful.
It’s been long time ago I don’t have so much difficulties to configure something.
The Bluetooth connection is always an adventure. Sometimes it works easily and sometimes it’s just impossible.
And the tricky/important thing to keep in mind, select usb input on the Qutest before to switch on the usb output on the 2Go. Otherwise it doesn’t work.
An auto output switch on the 2Go/2yu could be nice when the DAC is on usb.

But with perseverance I was able to have a setup operational.
And so far it’s a very nice configuration as a Roon endpoint. It sounds great and I have no issue with the sound or the connectivity (wired).
Just a last remark, it’s the limitation at 384kHz. Very weird because it seems it’s compatible with 768kHz.

Edit :
Another feature for the future would be an auto wake-up.
The 2Go is still reliable (Bluetooth and network) when the 2Yu/2Go is in standby mode but I didn’t find any way to wake-up it.

 

[PANURUS]

A first feedback of my experience with the couple 2yu/2Go connected to my Qutest.
First thing I want to say it’s the Gofigure app and the user experience is just awful.
It’s been long time ago I don’t have so much difficulties to configure something.
The Bluetooth connection is always an adventure. Sometimes it works easily and sometimes it’s just impossible.
And the tricky/important thing to keep in mind, select usb input on the Qutest before to switch on the usb output on the 2Go. Otherwise it doesn’t work.
An auto output switch on the 2Go/2yu could be nice when the DAC is on usb.

But with perseverance I was able to have a setup operational.
And so far it’s a very nice configuration as a Roon endpoint. It sounds great and I have no issue with the sound or the connectivity (wired).
Just a last remark, it’s the limitation at 384kHz. Very weird because it seems it’s compatible with 768kHz.

Have you try the optical fiber between the 2yu and your Qutest? With my Hugo2, the sound is not the same than usb.
I had used the usb cable of my mojo and the usb cable with ferrites of my Hugo2. I prefer the sound with the optical fiber.
I have to test more but I think that 2goHugo2 is better than 2go2yu usb Hugo2.


First surprise with my 2go2yu.
Today, I was listen a playlist of Qobuz with the 2yu connected with the mscaler.
After some tracks, the 192 khz do not work and 3 tracks after, nothing was played. The iinput led of the scaler was off.
I change the mscaler for the Hugo2. The Hugo2 worked perfectly.
I replace the mscaler, turn off mscaler and 2yu and always the input led of the mscaler was off.
I had thinking, my scaler is broken with optical light.
The solution was: remove the usb alimentation cable of the 2go and then the system restarts to work.
It is not described in the user manual. Strange.

 

[Jimjim77]

Have you try the optical fiber between the 2yu and your Qutest?

I have. Because I need to send the flux to two separate zones. So I have optical to one and coaxial to the other one.
Actually the Qutest is double attached to the 2Yu.

 

[SteveHulk]

Totally agree with edwardsean. Here is my basic understanding of digital signal:
Perfect digital signal means perfect square waveform, which I have never seen in any real world scenario. How computers and networks work perfectly are heavily relied on error correction and in pure digital form (doesn't need to covert to analog). In audio, first of all, there is no error correction in s/pdif or UAC (but there are some special cases. According to Rob Watts, the Chord Windows driver will resend faulty packet. So, Hugo2's USB can have error correction). Second, the imperfect of the digital signal (shark fin waveform) can affect the timing in the D/A conversion. Third, any noise generated from the digital side can affect the RFI/EMI sensitivity analog components.

At the end, I just trust my ears. If I hear a different, go with the way I prefer. If I don't hear a different, that is great, and I am not going to worry about it.

This discussion has me in mind of experiences I have had in the distant past...

Firstly, when I first went from vinyl (on a Michel Gyrodeck) to CD the player I bought was a Sony CDP555ES. This was a very well put together device and quite weighty. In particular, the transport mechanism was an all-metal affair with a magnetic guide rail for the laser pickup. It had two transformers hanging out of the back, one was the power supply for the transport mechanism and the other was for the DAC and analogue output circuitry. The two power supplies were entirely independent.

In the early days of cd the "bits are bits" view was predominant. Demonstrations usually focused on the fact that you could damage a CD in a way that would totally destroy vinyl and the CD would still play.

It didn't take long for the high end audio manufacturers to cotton on that improving construction values in their products and making the transports more along the lines of turntables with suspension and vibration isolation led to significant sound improvements.

The fact was that vibrations picked up by the transport led to read errors. The read errors activated error correction which created digital noise in the DAC circuits. This in turn degraded the final sound quality. Hence the steps taken by Sony in the 555ES.

The DAC itself in the Sony was no great shakes and I soon moved on to using the Sony as a transport with external DACS. The first of these was the Musical Fidelity Digilog. This was a revelation at the time because, amongst other things, the silences in the music sounded so "black." It was the sonic equivalent of looking at diamonds first on beige velvet and then on black velvet. I realised then how deleterious even low-level noise is to the audio experience. The stunningly low noise floor in the DAVE is a major factor in why it sounds so good.

Later I went to a memorial mason and had a slab of black granite 1.25" thick cut to fit the Sony. I was inspired to do this by the fact that the casework of the dCS kit was so good, and in particular that the Elgar had a slab of marble embedded in its top surface. At that time I did not yet have the Verdi transport. I used Blutack to fix the granite to the TOP of the Sony and secured yet another sound improvement. This was a noticeable stabilisation of the bass. A previous slight "wandering/wavering" or "floating" sensation was gone and the bass felt more locked in.

I can only suppose that strengthening the casework of the Sony led to less vibration of the transport mechanism.

Vibration has a bad effect on all electronics, hence the plethora of after-market mechanical isolation devices and is also why high-end manufacturers like Chord go in hard on very solid casework. Even the little Mojo has solid casework.

Secondly, and years later I learnt a valuable lesson in the necessity of proper handling of digital signals from experiences with dCS kit.

I had the Verdi transport, Purcell upsampler, and Elgar DAC already in place and was auditioning the Verona digital clock. The Verona (about £4000 at the time) is a highly stable clock signal generator which, when connected to the other dCS devices, forces digital synchronisation between them. Clocking variations are a prominent source of errors and therefore noise in a digital chain. The Verona is designed to eliminate these errors.

The first track I used to test the setup was a choral piece (on a Sony disc at 20 bit resolution) recorded in a church. Prior to the start of the singing there was a few seconds of silence in the church.

Before the singing even started I know I was going to have the Verona. As the silence started it felt like the space in my room opened up and I heard the size and ambient of the church. This is, I think, due to extremely low-level sounds through the full frequency spectrum now being reproduced properly instead of being lost in noise in the digital processing.

I was just stunned. Totally unexpected.

It makes me understand why the design features and paradigm of devices like the Hugo and the DAVE result in such an amazing sonic result.

Bits are not just bits.

It is deeply important how they are managed and processed. The achievements of companies like dCS and Chord are a clear demonstration of this.

Statements made in previous posts such as the one above along the lines of ALAC sounding better than FLAC because ALAC does not involve noise associated with the digital process of unpacking the data are entirely plausible to me. I intend to make my own tests of these claims.

 

[MarkParity]

Statements made in previous posts such as the one above along the lines of ALAC sounding better than FLAC because ALAC does not involve noise associated with the digital process of unpacking the data are entirely plausible to me. I intend to make my own tests of these claims.

I've done these kind of tests before and do retest from time to time too, just now for example.

Using Foobar2000 to covert some FLAC's to WAV and put them on the SD card is easy enough.

My current listening setup for this test:

SD->2Go->Hugo2->Senheiser ie900 controlled using mconnect and yes I think I can detect a difference between playing Wav's and FLAC's.

The problem is I know which is which so I'm biased one way or the other, unless someone else selects the files that will always be an issue. I bet if someone else selects the files then I won't be able to tell a difference.

Is it worth storing all my FLAC files a WAV files even though I have space with a 1TB uSD card, probably not.

 

[AndrewOld]

Otoh, WAV has roughly twice the file size of FLAC , so will involve twice the disc or memory access, twice the bus activity, twice the data transfer …. why should those be inherently quiet and the trivial and intermittent computation to decode FLAC be noisy?