deathklok
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I'll prove it after finals, unless someone wants to beat me to it. I'm taking a math break for a week.
challenged to answer a sample question (maths) from Chinese university entrance test
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Techno Rocker
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I'm gonna go for this tomorrow. Both of them. For now, Good Night.
T.R.
T.R.
saint.panda
Headphoneus Supremus
The Chinese entrance exam is madness although I've heard that Korea, India and Japan are equally bad or even worse.
One problem is that they focus too much on learning by heart, even in math. Ask a native Chinese student in a western university about the "why" and not the "how", and they'll often be hard-pressed to give you an answer. Things like creative or transfer thinking are not part of the curriculum over there. Still, to score 100% on the GRE math part is a given for a top spec Chinese student based on what my friends at Peking University tell me. Chinese people are just really good at standardized tests. My ex-girlfriend who has never been out of China scored a higher Toefl than I did (I think she got 290 on the CBT).
5 months ago, I talked to the Chinese vice-secretary of education, when she held a speech at my uni (she's an alumni), on the neccessity to change the Chinese university entrance exam as it represents the fulcrum of Chinese education. My point was that even if certain schools do try to introduce reforms, they are doomed to fail because in the end, the students want to pass the exam and don't care whether their education will set them on the right path in the future. Mr. Hu can talk about fostering innovation as long as he wants but it won't succeed without broad and proper education in the early stages. The nice woman told me three things:
1. Yes, it needs to be changed sometime in the future, but gradually.
2. The reason it exists and the reason it is so rigid is because in order to maintain meritocracy, the big exam is the only (more or less) objective measuring stick in such a huge country. In China where "favours" still run rampant, it is currently the only viable option to ensure fairness for all.
Makes sense to me.
If you look at how biased American college entrance requirements are (i.e. quotes), the Chinese one may not make sense on an educational level but at least it's based on pure meritocracy instead of ethnicity or alumnicity (exagerrated of course). It is tougher for an American born Chinese to get into Ivy League than others based on grades alone. And if you look at the statistics of how easy it is for an alumni kid to get in, it's just saddening. Or recommendation letters. I've seen kids at my school in the US get into Brown with bad grades because they had a recommendation from my school principal who has close ties with Brown. I've seen kids get into Columbia not because of high excellence (neither sports, nor academic nor extra-curricular) but because of things that would violate the rules of headfi to be mentioned. He was a good friend of mine, but even he was puzzled by the outcome. This was actually a big issue at my school because another dude applied, too, and he was just sick (top 5% grades, varsity QB, varity basketball team and in both we were among the best in the state of VA, poetry prizes, etc.). You looked at two applications with one clearly superior to the other and just scratched your head in astonishment upon seeing the results.
In a country that likes to think of itself as the embodiment of meritocracy, this situation is not tenable. Some good articles on the topic: Link1, Link2.
---
And since we're on the topic, American high school education really needs to catch up. In Calculus BC and I learned things in my US junior year that are taught in basic math courses that every high school senior at my school in Munich has to learn. Factor in the fact that American high school students only cover 5-6 subjects a years whereas in Germany you have around 10-12 subjects a year (talk about general education). And the SAT is a joke. What does basic algebra has to do with my college career? College education is an entirely different matter though. There, the US is still miles ahead of the rest save for a few exceptions. I think the main reasons why US colleges are so good are because:
1. The mentality of motivation
2. Stronger competition among schools
3. CA$H: Lots of money coming from alumni, student fees (too high though, imo) and the private sector.
4. Top tier professors who really want to teach and who are usually good at it. I have two Nobel prize candidate profs, and they both suck from a student's perspective.
One problem is that they focus too much on learning by heart, even in math. Ask a native Chinese student in a western university about the "why" and not the "how", and they'll often be hard-pressed to give you an answer. Things like creative or transfer thinking are not part of the curriculum over there. Still, to score 100% on the GRE math part is a given for a top spec Chinese student based on what my friends at Peking University tell me. Chinese people are just really good at standardized tests. My ex-girlfriend who has never been out of China scored a higher Toefl than I did (I think she got 290 on the CBT).
5 months ago, I talked to the Chinese vice-secretary of education, when she held a speech at my uni (she's an alumni), on the neccessity to change the Chinese university entrance exam as it represents the fulcrum of Chinese education. My point was that even if certain schools do try to introduce reforms, they are doomed to fail because in the end, the students want to pass the exam and don't care whether their education will set them on the right path in the future. Mr. Hu can talk about fostering innovation as long as he wants but it won't succeed without broad and proper education in the early stages. The nice woman told me three things:
1. Yes, it needs to be changed sometime in the future, but gradually.
2. The reason it exists and the reason it is so rigid is because in order to maintain meritocracy, the big exam is the only (more or less) objective measuring stick in such a huge country. In China where "favours" still run rampant, it is currently the only viable option to ensure fairness for all.
Makes sense to me.
If you look at how biased American college entrance requirements are (i.e. quotes), the Chinese one may not make sense on an educational level but at least it's based on pure meritocracy instead of ethnicity or alumnicity (exagerrated of course). It is tougher for an American born Chinese to get into Ivy League than others based on grades alone. And if you look at the statistics of how easy it is for an alumni kid to get in, it's just saddening. Or recommendation letters. I've seen kids at my school in the US get into Brown with bad grades because they had a recommendation from my school principal who has close ties with Brown. I've seen kids get into Columbia not because of high excellence (neither sports, nor academic nor extra-curricular) but because of things that would violate the rules of headfi to be mentioned. He was a good friend of mine, but even he was puzzled by the outcome. This was actually a big issue at my school because another dude applied, too, and he was just sick (top 5% grades, varsity QB, varity basketball team and in both we were among the best in the state of VA, poetry prizes, etc.). You looked at two applications with one clearly superior to the other and just scratched your head in astonishment upon seeing the results.
In a country that likes to think of itself as the embodiment of meritocracy, this situation is not tenable. Some good articles on the topic: Link1, Link2.
---
And since we're on the topic, American high school education really needs to catch up. In Calculus BC and I learned things in my US junior year that are taught in basic math courses that every high school senior at my school in Munich has to learn. Factor in the fact that American high school students only cover 5-6 subjects a years whereas in Germany you have around 10-12 subjects a year (talk about general education). And the SAT is a joke. What does basic algebra has to do with my college career? College education is an entirely different matter though. There, the US is still miles ahead of the rest save for a few exceptions. I think the main reasons why US colleges are so good are because:
1. The mentality of motivation
2. Stronger competition among schools
3. CA$H: Lots of money coming from alumni, student fees (too high though, imo) and the private sector.
4. Top tier professors who really want to teach and who are usually good at it. I have two Nobel prize candidate profs, and they both suck from a student's perspective.
mrhobbit
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first question would be vectors i imagine? and second would be trigonometry and pyth thm.
learnt the first at 16, the second at 14(i am from singapore)
i guess it may have to do with the government's educational policy as well, in singapore where the maths and sciences are valued, we have extensive coaching in those subjects, while subjects like history and literature are sorely neglected in my opininon.
they call history "history", but i think it should be called, a short summary on 20th century events. shallow and superficial.
sometimes its based on what the educational policies is, in my country, the arts are sorely neglected and unwanted in my opinion.
to enter local tetiary education, one need not pass english, but one needs to pass mathematics, speaks volumes about what they want i guess.
i am abit ignorant about this, but is the O level exminations set by cambridge the same throughout? as in the O level maths paper i took last year, is it the same as the person say in britain is taking? or do they have differences in terms of chapters or difficulty?
learnt the first at 16, the second at 14(i am from singapore)
i guess it may have to do with the government's educational policy as well, in singapore where the maths and sciences are valued, we have extensive coaching in those subjects, while subjects like history and literature are sorely neglected in my opininon.
they call history "history", but i think it should be called, a short summary on 20th century events. shallow and superficial.
sometimes its based on what the educational policies is, in my country, the arts are sorely neglected and unwanted in my opinion.
to enter local tetiary education, one need not pass english, but one needs to pass mathematics, speaks volumes about what they want i guess.
i am abit ignorant about this, but is the O level exminations set by cambridge the same throughout? as in the O level maths paper i took last year, is it the same as the person say in britain is taking? or do they have differences in terms of chapters or difficulty?
AudioNoob
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We have similar stuff here too in Turkey, math and science in high school is way above the American high school system, probably a little above AP courses.
jinp6301
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Quote:
everything he said is right on the mark!
this kinda happened to me. I was top 1% of my class and I was captain of the golf team, math team, won many math awards from the city, 1540 sat scores blah blah blah and I didnt get into cornell (but somehow got waitlisted for harvard) while my hispanic friend got in to cornell with basically a full scholarship even though his credentials arent even close to being as good as mine. ehh whatever
(I'm korean btw w/o a green card
)
| Originally Posted by saint.panda /img/forum/go_quote.gif The Chinese entrance exam is madness although I've heard that Korea, India and Japan are equally bad or even worse. One problem is that they focus too much on learning by heart, even in math. Ask a native Chinese student in a western university about the "why" and not the "how", and they'll often be hard-pressed to give you an answer. Things like creative or transfer thinking are not part of the curriculum over there. Still, to score 100% on the GRE math part is a given for a top spec Chinese student based on what my friends at Peking University tell me. Chinese people are just really good at standardized tests. My ex-girlfriend who has never been out of China scored a higher Toefl than I did (I think she got 290 on the CBT). 5 months ago, I talked to the Chinese vice-secretary of education, when she held a speech at my uni (she's an alumni), on the neccessity to change the Chinese university entrance exam as it represents the fulcrum of Chinese education. My point was that even if certain schools do try to introduce reforms, they are doomed to fail because in the end, the students want to pass the exam and don't care whether their education will set them on the right path in the future. Mr. Hu can talk about fostering innovation as long as he wants but it won't succeed without broad and proper education in the early stages. The nice woman told me three things: 1. Yes, it needs to be changed sometime in the future, but gradually. 2. The reason it exists and the reason it is so rigid is because in order to maintain meritocracy, the big exam is the only (more or less) objective measuring stick in such a huge country. In China where "favours" still run rampant, it is currently the only viable option to ensure fairness for all. Makes sense to me. If you look at how biased American college entrance requirements are (i.e. quotes), the Chinese one may not make sense on an educational level but at least it's based on pure meritocracy instead of ethnicity or alumnicity (exagerrated of course). It is tougher for an American born Chinese to get into Ivy League than others based on grades alone. And if you look at the statistics of how easy it is for an alumni kid to get in, it's just saddening. Or recommendation letters. I've seen kids at my school in the US get into Brown with bad grades because they had a recommendation from my school principal who has close ties with Brown. I've seen kids get into Columbia not because of high excellence (neither sports, nor academic nor extra-curricular) but because of things that would violate the rules of headfi to be mentioned. He was a good friend of mine, but even he was puzzled by the outcome. This was actually a big issue at my school because another dude applied, too, and he was just sick (top 5% grades, varsity QB, varity basketball team and in both we were among the best in the state of VA, poetry prizes, etc.). You looked at two applications with one clearly superior to the other and just scratched your head in astonishment upon seeing the results. In a country that likes to think of itself as the embodiment of meritocracy, this situation is not tenable. Some good articles on the topic: Link1, Link2. --- And since we're on the topic, American high school education really needs to catch up. In Calculus BC and I learned things in my US junior year that are taught in basic math courses that every high school senior at my school in Munich has to learn. Factor in the fact that American high school students only cover 5-6 subjects a years whereas in Germany you have around 10-12 subjects a year (talk about general education). And the SAT is a joke. What does basic algebra has to do with my college career? College education is an entirely different matter though. There, the US is still miles ahead of the rest save for a few exceptions. I think the main reasons why US colleges are so good are because: 1. The mentality of motivation 2. Stronger competition among schools 3. CA$H: Lots of money coming from alumni, student fees (too high though, imo) and the private sector. 4. Top tier professors who really want to teach and who are usually good at it. I have two Nobel prize candidate profs, and they both suck from a student's perspective. |
everything he said is right on the mark!
this kinda happened to me. I was top 1% of my class and I was captain of the golf team, math team, won many math awards from the city, 1540 sat scores blah blah blah and I didnt get into cornell (but somehow got waitlisted for harvard) while my hispanic friend got in to cornell with basically a full scholarship even though his credentials arent even close to being as good as mine. ehh whatever
(I'm korean btw w/o a green card
jmmtn4aj
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Quote:
In China, competition is about as aggressive as it could possibly get anywhere else in the world. Tens of thousands of students qualify for each of top universities in China every year, universities with the number of vacancies represented in just 4 figures. Standards have to be raised to weed out the smart from the very smart. In the western world, the differences between the universities are at best, minimal. An MD from a small university might not get the holder in Mayo Clinic, but it definitely will get him somewhere related to his degree. In China, if the name of the university printed on the degree is even slightly below prestigious, it could mean the holder going back to work on the family farm in his village.
As for the other Asian countries, it's just finding a niche and excelling in it.
| Originally Posted by pne /img/forum/go_quote.gif in math but i wonder why asian countries are so intent on turning their students into walking calculators? its not a matter of wow they are so much smarter than us. It's why the hell are they raising the standards of education that should be similar no matter what country you go to. Highschool math should be highschool math whether you study in asian or europe or north america, there are reasons for these standards. How is it fair to students in other countries once you start raising your own bar? |
In China, competition is about as aggressive as it could possibly get anywhere else in the world. Tens of thousands of students qualify for each of top universities in China every year, universities with the number of vacancies represented in just 4 figures. Standards have to be raised to weed out the smart from the very smart. In the western world, the differences between the universities are at best, minimal. An MD from a small university might not get the holder in Mayo Clinic, but it definitely will get him somewhere related to his degree. In China, if the name of the university printed on the degree is even slightly below prestigious, it could mean the holder going back to work on the family farm in his village.
As for the other Asian countries, it's just finding a niche and excelling in it.
K2Grey
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I am one of dem smart asians and really, I don't know how solve the first problem and I can't really be bothered to given the extreme lack of relevance that problem has to anything meaningful I will likely do in the future.
Let's all remember that one should not learn math just for the sake of learning math.
Edit: IIRC, what has been said about the nature of universities in China is true. One must attempt to weed out the more qualified from the less qualified, however the method used to do this isn't necessarily the optimal one (then again a standardized way of doing that is pretty hard to find).
| Originally Posted by Rock&Roll Ninja /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hmm, so far in this thread the only people who even attempted to answer the 'super Chinese math' problem are a Canadian and an American college drop-out. Where all 'dem smart asians? (answer: They're in Asia making stupid pointless tests to distract the rest of the world while they quietly steal our chocolate). |
I am one of dem smart asians and really, I don't know how solve the first problem and I can't really be bothered to given the extreme lack of relevance that problem has to anything meaningful I will likely do in the future.
Let's all remember that one should not learn math just for the sake of learning math.
Edit: IIRC, what has been said about the nature of universities in China is true. One must attempt to weed out the more qualified from the less qualified, however the method used to do this isn't necessarily the optimal one (then again a standardized way of doing that is pretty hard to find).
saint.panda
Headphoneus Supremus
Actually, going back on what I said, meritocracy isn't perfect in China either because they have number quotes based on the state you live in, e.g. 500 from state x and 500 from state y. Since there are lot more people living in some kind remote areas of China than in Beijing, it's a lot easier for Beijingnese to attend the top schools.
The tradition of the huge standardized tests and learning by heart goes back to Confucius and the royal exams. The "SAT" back then was of quite a different calibre. For example, for certain questions instead of nowadays's "fill in the missing word", you were given the first sentence of an essay by Confucius and the task was to "fill in the rest". Good luck.
Once you had reached the final level of the exam (local, regional, state, ..., final), which took place in the forbidden city with a handful of applicants for ministerial jobs, that was the first time the students were asked scrutinizing questions on the essence of things.
The tradition of the huge standardized tests and learning by heart goes back to Confucius and the royal exams. The "SAT" back then was of quite a different calibre. For example, for certain questions instead of nowadays's "fill in the missing word", you were given the first sentence of an essay by Confucius and the task was to "fill in the rest". Good luck.
Once you had reached the final level of the exam (local, regional, state, ..., final), which took place in the forbidden city with a handful of applicants for ministerial jobs, that was the first time the students were asked scrutinizing questions on the essence of things.
Rock&Roll Ninja
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No, they use computer programs to track these figures. There is no magical stock broker trapped in a closet who uses Euclidian geometry to mark the trade values of RMB.
Regardless your cache of 'engineers, bankers, and brokers' still represent far less than 1% of the poulace, which I argued was the percentage of human adults who understand the mechanics and use higher mathemeatics*
*Any joe can figure their cost of gas usage on their new car for Xmiles. So yes he is using an advanced Algebraic solution (even if he doesn't know it). Thus the point I make of understanding the mechanics. Much like you don't need a chemistrty degree to light a match. Or a medical degree to diagnose a compound fracture.
| Originally Posted by deathklok /img/forum/go_quote.gif Bankers use exponentials and logarithmic functions (a major component of which is derivation and integration) to tack that interest onto your account, and to project what level it should be next year to allow the bank to not bust. Stock market analysts use natural logarithms to predict market actions and generalize trends. |
No, they use computer programs to track these figures. There is no magical stock broker trapped in a closet who uses Euclidian geometry to mark the trade values of RMB.
Regardless your cache of 'engineers, bankers, and brokers' still represent far less than 1% of the poulace, which I argued was the percentage of human adults who understand the mechanics and use higher mathemeatics*
*Any joe can figure their cost of gas usage on their new car for Xmiles. So yes he is using an advanced Algebraic solution (even if he doesn't know it). Thus the point I make of understanding the mechanics. Much like you don't need a chemistrty degree to light a match. Or a medical degree to diagnose a compound fracture.
Arainach
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Ninja: Most Engineers use Calculators and Computers too. Doesn't matter. If people DON'T understand the fundamental basics of what they're doing, very bad things happen. This has been demonstrated over and over and over. Teaching only practical implementations rather than theory is a recipe for disaster.
pne
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no, its not. this is an improperly cited graph...
| Originally Posted by Power Cord /img/forum/go_quote.gif this is why. also this. |
no, its not. this is an improperly cited graph...
ilovesocks
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Fascinating thread!
Quote:
Hilarity.
Quote:
| Originally Posted by Azure /img/forum/go_quote.gif Quote:
Uhh...point? |
Hilarity.
Corrupt^
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I'd do the first one if it were in dutch and if I grabbed my old math books again. I just need to take a look at some formulas again, I've learned them once but can't remember them all
But belgium students, even though alot of them score bad at it at school, still perform extreemly well @ maths compared to alot of other countries. If I remember correctly, the only country which had a "better" (=harder, doesn't always make it better tbh, just watch the suicide rates from age 10 to 25 in Japan) education, was Japan.
Last year I had a year total of 96/100 for math, but don't ask me how my french was
But belgium students, even though alot of them score bad at it at school, still perform extreemly well @ maths compared to alot of other countries. If I remember correctly, the only country which had a "better" (=harder, doesn't always make it better tbh, just watch the suicide rates from age 10 to 25 in Japan) education, was Japan.
Last year I had a year total of 96/100 for math, but don't ask me how my french was
Techno Rocker
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Well here we go:
1. They are perpendicular I just need to right the formal proof
2. This problem was too easy.
3. This one, is unsolvable.
Now because I'm going for the prize I'll post my answers tomorrow.
These problems aren't that difficult. What's hard is that you have three questions where all of your information is combined in to one three dimensional figure. What's difficult about that is extracting the correct information to set up your formal problems.
I can't remember who said it , but he/she was right. This problem tests your reasoning and logic skills more than your math capabilities. If you know the math then everything just falls into place as long as you can interprut the model and extract the information correctly.
"Elementary my dear Watson!"
-T.R.
1. They are perpendicular I just need to right the formal proof
2. This problem was too easy.
3. This one, is unsolvable.
Now because I'm going for the prize I'll post my answers tomorrow.
These problems aren't that difficult. What's hard is that you have three questions where all of your information is combined in to one three dimensional figure. What's difficult about that is extracting the correct information to set up your formal problems.
I can't remember who said it , but he/she was right. This problem tests your reasoning and logic skills more than your math capabilities. If you know the math then everything just falls into place as long as you can interprut the model and extract the information correctly.
"Elementary my dear Watson!"
-T.R.
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