[pne]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rock&Roll Ninja /img/forum/go_quote.gif It'd be nice for everyone to be smart, but you just can't undo all the pesky genetic material Should the average child be forced to memorize mathematical formula, knowing full well less than 1% of the population will ever have the opportunity to use said forumula (I don't think knowing how to figure-out the perpendicularness of any abstract points on an imaginary grid with unknown distances was ever a life-or-death scenario. Suffice to say nobody will ever NEED to know the mathematical formulas required for Chinese math)? Especially since so many people are completely clueless as to how math that will effect their lives is understood (like fluxuating credit card intrest rates). In summary; 99:100 humans will only need to be able to add, subtract, multiply, divide, know a decimal to the hundredth place, measure in fractions, and calculate an approximate percentage. Any "higher math" is real a gigantic waste of taxpayer money, time, and resources that should be spent teaching children other subjects. Like learning how to speak in proper sentences. LOL OMG TGIF YMMV!

couldn't have said it better myself. a lot of us have no use for pure math, only applied math. what about the kids who know their future is in sciences, arts, business, health care, etc? Now they have a difficult time getting a degree because someone in the government decided that math was the most important subject and therefore the standards should be jacked up. Being asian myself I can kind of understand the motivation for this, especially from China. They want to compete with the west, and they want to modernize. There is a lot of shame from being a big country but the little guy on the international stage for so long. Also, the shame from being unable to accept and adapt to western culture like the japanese have. Math is something that translates the language and culture barrier, calculations are the same no matter what language they are in. It's no surprise why there is such a push for students to excel in it.



Quote:

Originally Posted by jinp6301 /img/forum/go_quote.gif who says high school math is MEANT for high school and university level math IS university level math? I dont really understand what you're talking about. I dont think any country is training their children to win in world competitions. If that was true, then there would be competitions that were based on the entire populations. Theres a reason why the US doesnt do that bad in math competitions, there are a lot of smart kids here, I'm just saying that the smart kids are way smarter then the average kid, while in other countries, the difference between the super smart kid and the "average" kid is much smaller, which is what it should be IMO. and its not at all similar to kids taking steroids. Children's bodies werent meant to take that sort of stress at that age, but children's minds are developed enough at that age so they can do "high" level math and other subjects.

maybe the whole foundation of a degree, or standardized testing, or public education?? When you graduate with a degree, employers can expect you to have a certain amount of standard skills. Say a BS in engineering for example. It doesn't matter if you take a graduate from china or japan or USA, they should all be proficient in the same areas. When you start introducing your own bias's into the education system, like the belief that math is more important than the other subjects, you get an imbalance.

Asian highschoolers aren't "smarter" than us, they've simply been FORCED to learn the material earlier. If we made changes to our education system the result would be the same, but what purpose does it have? Do you really want to force a young child into learning math that is over his/her head, when they will be much more prepared later on in life to learn it? Why should we send our kids to public schooling at all? Why not homeschool or private tutor them with university level textbooks from a young age? Surely they would be "smarter" right?

 

[jinp6301]

well the thing about math is that its not just memorizing formulas and tables. Its about improving your thinking skills which is extremely important imo in any field you go in, well except manual labor I guess.

its kinda late and I had too many classes today. My brains not up to this tonight. I'll post more tomorrow

 

[jinp6301]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pne /img/forum/go_quote.gif couldn't have said it better myself. a lot of us have no use for pure math, only applied math. what about the kids who know their future is in sciences, arts, business, health care, etc? Now they have a difficult time getting a degree because someone in the government decided that math was the most important subject and therefore the standards should be jacked up. Being asian myself I can kind of understand the motivation for this, especially from China. They want to compete with the west, and they want to modernize. There is a lot of shame from being a big country but the little guy on the international stage for so long. Also, the shame from being unable to accept and adapt to western culture like the japanese have. Math is something that translates the language and culture barrier, calculations are the same no matter what language they are in. It's no surprise why there is such a push for students to excel in it. maybe the whole foundation of a degree, or standardized testing, or public education?? When you graduate with a degree, employers can expect you to have a certain amount of standard skills. Say a BS in engineering for example. It doesn't matter if you take a graduate from china or japan or USA, they should all be proficient in the same areas. When you start introducing your own bias's into the education system, like the belief that math is more important than the other subjects, you get an imbalance. Asian highschoolers aren't "smarter" than us, they've simply been FORCED to learn the material earlier. If we made changes to our education system the result would be the same, but what purpose does it have? Do you really want to force a young child into learning math that is over his/her head, when they will be much more prepared later on in life to learn it? Why should we send our kids to public schooling at all? Why not homeschool or private tutor them with university level textbooks from a young age? Surely they would be "smarter" right?

is it over their head? Who determines this? I agree that we shouldnt force anybody to learn anything thats over their head, but the children in Asia's grasp of higher mathematical concepts show that its not over their head.

and saying that if I have a BS in Engineering from MIT and if someone else has a BS in engineering from a community college, we have the same education. You know as well as I do that this isint true. If it was then all the people with the same degree would all be paid the same because they had the same education

ok I really have a headache now (not related to this) so I'll check this thread tomorrow. This is a really good debate going on here

EDIT: havent fully read pne's post

science, business, health care, and more are all fields that having knowledge of higher math can help you excel in. Even in some forms of art, knowledge of higher math can help you be more creative.

 

[Azure]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pne /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...Asian highschoolers aren't "smarter" than us, they've simply been FORCED to learn the material earlier. If we made changes to our education system the result would be the same...

Uh, would the result be the same? I honestly doubt it. At least from what I've observed, American students tend to be lazy and unmotivated (of course there are TONS of students that are the opposite, but that's not the point). If you upped the standards, I think a lot of American students would do a lot worse. There is a stereotype that Asian students are more academically motivated than most other types of students, and there's a lot of truth in this. It doesn't matter what you attribute this motivation to (self-motivation or parental-motivation/coercion

); all that matters is that you'll likely see more effort on the part of Asians to understand and learn the new, higher material, while I bet a lot of American students would just find MORE work that they don't want to do and would fail more miserably.

I should mention that I'm assuming the stereotype that many American students (may not apply to Asian-American students?) don't give a crap about school and don't try. This stereotype at least applies to schools in my city, as I've personally observed it myself.

 

[pne]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jinp6301 /img/forum/go_quote.gif is it over their head? Who determines this? I agree that we shouldnt force anybody to learn anything thats over their head, but the children in Asia's grasp of higher mathematical concepts show that its not over their head. and saying that if I have a BS in Engineering from MIT and if someone else has a BS in engineering from a community college, we have the same education. You know as well as I do that this isint true. If it was then all the people with the same degree would all be paid the same because they had the same education ok I really have a headache now (not related to this) so I'll check this thread tomorrow. This is a really good debate going on here

what i'm trying to say is, if they need pure level math and calculus, they can learn that in university or college. There is no point in forcing them to learn it in highschool, where the focus should be to give you a broad/general education of all subjects so you can go out and survive in the real world, IE trades jobs or other fresh out of highschool jobs. If you want to learn more then persue post secondary.

You bring up a good point about MIT/ other prestegious colleges. I think they are a complete load of ****. the idea that you can get a better education if you can afford it, selectivity because of your race, etc is terrible. People should be able to get a good education from any college and should not be discriminated against because they didn't attend a well known school.

 

[uzziah]

i hate ****ing tests

sry, had to get that out

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure /img/forum/go_quote.gif I should mention that I'm assuming the stereotype that many American students don't give a crap about school and don't try. This stereotype at least applies to schools in my city, as I've personally observed it myself.

Hmm, so far in this thread the only people who even attempted to answer the 'super Chinese math' problem are a Canadian and an American college drop-out. Where all 'dem smart asians? (answer: They're in Asia making stupid pointless tests to distract the rest of the world while they quietly steal our chocolate).

 

[jinp6301]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pne /img/forum/go_quote.gif what i'm trying to say is, if they need pure level math and calculus, they can learn that in university or college. There is no point in forcing them to learn it in highschool, where the focus should be to give you a broad/general education of all subjects so you can go out and survive in the real world, IE trades jobs or other fresh out of highschool jobs. If you want to learn more then persue post secondary. You bring up a good point about MIT/ other prestegious colleges. I think they are a complete load of ****. the idea that you can get a better education if you can afford it, selectivity because of your race, etc is terrible. People should be able to get a good education from any college and should not be discriminated against because they didn't attend a well known school.

yea I agree with you on the "pay more to get a better education" thing. Thats why I personally like Asian colleges because the best universities in their respective countries are all public and they choose only based on their intelligence or their talent (if its music or the arts).

What I've noticed while attending school here (I lived in S. Korea until like 5th grade and basically went to school in the US for the rest, and I'm a soph in college now) is that the Asian countries are more focused on the top 5% where america is more focused on bringing up the bottom 5% with lots of focus on special ed and stuff.

 

[jinp6301]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure /img/forum/go_quote.gif Uh, would the result be the same? I honestly doubt it. At least from what I've observed, American students tend to be lazy and unmotivated (of course there are TONS of students that are the opposite, but that's not the point). If you upped the standards, I think a lot of American students would do a lot worse. There is a stereotype that Asian students are more academically motivated than most other types of students, and there's a lot of truth in this. It doesn't matter what you attribute this motivation to (self-motivation or parental-motivation/coercion ); all that matters is that you'll likely see more effort on the part of Asians to understand and learn the new, higher material, while I bet a lot of American students would just find MORE work that they don't want to do and would fail more miserably. I should mention that I'm assuming the stereotype that many American students (may not apply to Asian-American students?) don't give a crap about school and don't try. This stereotype at least applies to schools in my city, as I've personally observed it myself.

ehh lots of asian american students are becoming lazy and unmotivated too. I think its just that the society in asian countries puts more emphasis on education because it was the only way to get a good paying job back when they were working.

 

[Azure]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rock&Roll Ninja /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hmm, so far in this thread the only people who even attempted to answer the 'super Chinese math' problem are a Canadian and an American college drop-out. Where all 'dem smart asians? (answer: They're in Asia making stupid pointless tests to distract the rest of the world while they quietly steal our chocolate).

Uhh...point?

 

[jinp6301]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rock&Roll Ninja /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hmm, so far in this thread the only people who even attempted to answer the 'super Chinese math' problem are a Canadian and an American college drop-out. Where all 'dem smart asians? (answer: They're in Asia making stupid pointless tests to distract the rest of the world while they quietly steal our chocolate).

mmmm chocolate

and also building amps/sources/fake elctrostats to kick head-fi in the butt!

 

[ThomasJB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure I should mention that I'm assuming the stereotype that many American students (may not apply to Asian-American students?) don't give a crap about school and don't try. This stereotype at least applies to schools in my city, as I've personally observed it myself.

I have to disagree with you here. There are many, many students who try hard, but struggle with math. I'm speaking from personal experience here. I had no interest in math at all until I took a computer science class and realized that I could actually use math to do something interesting. My math grades at the time were abysmal, not only because I was unmotivated but because I had very poor teachers, until two years ago when I decided to try to learn the material. Even today I feel like I have no affinity for math, but I've been attempting to substitute hard work for natural ability.

Consider that the reason students don't try is often that they can see no relevance to themselves. As Rock&Roll Ninja posted earlier, if a student has no interest whatsoever in a career involving math, it is difficult to motivate them. Is there some sociological difference, then, that causes Asian people to be motivated to learn things they feel are irrelevant to their own success? I don't know that this can be entirely explained by the drive to compete with Western students.

To conclude, I have no idea what is going on in that first problem. All those lines just give me a headache, I can't see where they are supposed to be inside the three-dimensional figure. What does this say about me? Do I lack reasoning skill, have I just not taken enough math classes, or is my spatial perception somehow skewed? I think that's most likely...

 

[deathklok]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rock&Roll Ninja /img/forum/go_quote.gif In summary; 99:100 humans will only need to be able to add, subtract, multiply, divide, know a decimal to the hundredth place, measure in fractions, and calculate an approximate percentage. Any "higher math" is real a gigantic waste of taxpayer money, time, and resources that should be spent teaching children other subjects. Like learning how to speak in proper sentences. LOL OMG TGIF YMMV!

This perception means you are not an engineer, nor a banker, nor a stock market analyst. Engineering especially deals with extreme levels of higher math, tension calculations, durability projections, strength projections, all of these are high-level integrations and differential equations, if not much worse. Bankers use exponentials and logarithmic functions (a major component of which is derivation and integration) to tack that interest onto your account, and to project what level it should be next year to allow the bank to not bust. Stock market analysts use natural logarithms to predict market actions and generalize trends.

Not to mention all the statisticians employed in every industry, physicists at universities, and many other important positions.

Higher level math may not be critical in your daily life, but learning it teaches deductive logic and problem solving strategies which are necessary in every day life. High level math is all around you, that's why you need to know it. Even if you aren't doing it, it concerns you directly.

 

[Azure]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThomasJB /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have to disagree with you here. There are many, many students who try hard, but struggle with math. I'm speaking from personal experience here. I had no interest in math at all until I took a computer science class and realized that I could actually use math to do something interesting. My math grades at the time were abysmal, not only because I was unmotivated but because I had very poor teachers, until two years ago when I decided to try to learn the material. Even today I feel like I have no affinity for math, but I've been attempting to substitute hard work for natural ability.

There are obvious many cases where the students ARE trying but just cannot understand the material, or the teachers themselves are horrible. But that doesn't discount the stereotype that there are tons of unmotivated American students out there that simply don't care about trying to learn. You can agree with a stereotype if you go against it (I believe the stereotype that Asians tend to be insanely good at math, but, speaking from personal experience here, there are many Asians that aren't insanely good at math, including myself).


Quote:

Originally Posted by ThomasJB /img/forum/go_quote.gif Consider that the reason students don't try is often that they can see no relevance to themselves. As Rock&Roll Ninja posted earlier, if a student has no interest whatsoever in a career involving math, it is difficult to motivate them. Is there some sociological difference, then, that causes Asian people to be motivated to learn things they feel are irrelevant to their own success? I don't know that this can be entirely explained by the drive to compete with Western students.

I think the reasons why they don't try is another issue. Personally, my motivating force when it comes to subjects that I'm not interested in or don't plan to devote my career to is that I want to get into a good college. I do NOT like history, but I have sense enough to know that getting an A in it will help me that much more towards getting into a good college known for its program in a field that I DO like. I'm also motivated by the idea that "If I can do it, why not do it?" If I know that I can get an A in my history classes, why not shoot for that A (obviously an "A" is a GOOD thing, and I know that it isn't beyond my abilities to get an A, so it makes sense to shoot for that A)?

I think the issue lies in the fact that a lot of students aren't college-bound, or aren't interested in going into careers that require academic backgrounds. In the grand scheme of things, I guess this really shouldn't be considered an "issue" (for political/economic reasons that are not to be discussed here).

 

[pne]

Quote:

Originally Posted by deathklok /img/forum/go_quote.gif This perception means you are not an engineer, nor a banker, nor a stock market analyst. Engineering especially deals with extreme levels of higher math, tension calculations, durability projections, strength projections, all of these are high-level integrations and differential equations, if not much worse. Higher level math may not be critical in your daily life, but learning it teaches deductive logic and problem solving strategies which are necessary in every day life. High level math is all around you, that's why you need to know it. Even if you aren't doing it, it concerns you directly.

thankfully engineers are also allowed to make a lot of approximations and assumptions. While in theory there is a lot of calculus, in practice usually approximations are valid enough to be used.

I truly believe that you have to be gifted to excel in higher level math. Math hasn't changed in a hundreds of years, the concepts taught today are the same. It is one thing to learn these techniques and principals and even be able to grasp their concept and apply them to real life, it is another to come up with them. It really does take a genius.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Friedrich_Gauss



also, can someone PLEASE answer the question? I'm actually kind of curious as to what the proof for the first part is.