Can't explain, can't measure....and if it was simply your cognitive bias ? This is at least explained, measured and documented...
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Cen.Grand DSDAC 1.0 Deluxe - ending point in my search for a new reference
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kingoftown1
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Anyone who doesn't believe in burn in should be strapped into a chair, A Clockwork Orange-style, and forced to listen to a Furutech GTX-D R NCF outlet's 500 hour rollercoaster of a burn-in cycle. At least that way they'd get a chance to listen to music instead of staring at APx555 plots all day
It is not a matter of "belief", but of reality...Everyone can believe what he wants but to claim it exists, he should bring rationals and proofs. There has never been at least a successfull blind test to testimonize the existence of burn in effects...No proofs whatsoever of any kind apart "beliefs"...
But it is not the subject here, but listening impressions of the Cen.Grand
But it is not the subject here, but listening impressions of the Cen.Grand
Pharmaboy
Headphoneus Supremus
And the final arbiter of reality is ... you? I don't think so.
Every time the topic of burn-in is mentioned on any thread, people show up, bristling with techno-outrage, to debunk it. Today it's @Lucas from Europe...tomorrow it will be someone else.
Please, just stop. Those of us who experienced positive sonic changes from systematically burning in audio gear do not require intervention. This is not heresy. It's not a deviant act to believe in efficacy of burn-in.
If you can't handle comments like these, just unfollow the thread. Then you will no longer be plagued by beliefs that clash with your own.
Every time the topic of burn-in is mentioned on any thread, people show up, bristling with techno-outrage, to debunk it. Today it's @Lucas from Europe...tomorrow it will be someone else.
Please, just stop. Those of us who experienced positive sonic changes from systematically burning in audio gear do not require intervention. This is not heresy. It's not a deviant act to believe in efficacy of burn-in.
If you can't handle comments like these, just unfollow the thread. Then you will no longer be plagued by beliefs that clash with your own.
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Final arbiter of reality is...proofs of existence !
...and I do want to follow this thread because I am very interested in this DAC (will probably be mine in the next months...) but please without mention of this urban legend of "burn in"....
...and I do want to follow this thread because I am very interested in this DAC (will probably be mine in the next months...) but please without mention of this urban legend of "burn in"....
geoffalter11
Headphoneus Supremus
So, when the measurements of this DAC tells you there is noise as all DSD DACs measure poorly and you can’t hear it, then what? The final arbiter is not measurements or facts but what you as a listener hear and enjoy!
You have come to a place where the subjective trumps the objective. Would it be urban legend that you liked this DAC when the data tells you that you shouldn’t even though the noise is imperceptible to the human ear? Because these DACs do not measure well, but they sound like heaven. For me, I don't care whether or not there is noise outside of what my ears can discern. And I don't care whether or not burn in can be measured. I only care that I like the way it sounds and if by chance something electrically is taking place, then that is good too.
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geoffalter11
Headphoneus Supremus
@Lucus point being that we here believe in the subjective and we trust our ears above all else. Measurements are helpful to gain a baseline, but they never tell the whole story. Especially since we don’t listen to sine waves, but music. If @Pharmaboy believes burn in helps him enjoy his gear, then I take him at his word. If the owner of Cen.Grand says his DACs need 300 hrs to sound their best then something electrically could be happening. We are open to the possibilities.
For me, I always listen as I go and often ask myself if the changes I am hearing are the product getting better or my ears adjusting to the way it sounds. The more I listen the less I know which is actually happening. But, my personal experience doesn’t dictate what other people think or feel and their experiences are their own and are perfectly laudable. Coming on here dictating that we should leave anything without data off the thread should be taken over to ASR where the objectivist crowd lives and thrives. They hate my perspective and find the way I think to be moronic. We accept all types of thinking and don’t push our beliefs on anyone in this thread.
For me, I always listen as I go and often ask myself if the changes I am hearing are the product getting better or my ears adjusting to the way it sounds. The more I listen the less I know which is actually happening. But, my personal experience doesn’t dictate what other people think or feel and their experiences are their own and are perfectly laudable. Coming on here dictating that we should leave anything without data off the thread should be taken over to ASR where the objectivist crowd lives and thrives. They hate my perspective and find the way I think to be moronic. We accept all types of thinking and don’t push our beliefs on anyone in this thread.
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There is a whole forum sub section to discuss audio science, and a discussion of burn in most likely has its own thread there. That would be a good place to take this discussion. Then you could continue to follow the thread about the dac but also not divert it into a discussion about your feeling about burn in. Thank you.
Well, I could say exactly the same for you....
Don't get me wrong: I fully support the view that exact measurement don't say anything about the "correctness" of sound of an HiFi gear, and I do believe that some distortions/colors lead to a more natural and pleasant sound. I for myself own a tube amplifier, and very much love R2R DACs. So I Don't care if the Cen.Grand has some uncorrect measurements, as long as they remain within acceptable limits and the sound is OK for me
I just say that measurements are usefull/necessary to prove the existence (or not) of a fact. And often, even if it measures, these facts are below human audible threshold...
geoffalter11
Headphoneus Supremus
Audio is a funny thing when it comes to measurements and the existence of facts. The fact is that the Topping D90SE is probably the best measuring DAC in existence. The facts don't translate to a sound that I like. It sounds sterile and boring and is missing air and top end resolution. The facts are that the Super Clock measures worse, yet I would live with that DAC forever. It has tons of air and resolution. But, even more so it has a quality that cannot be measured. It has a deep saturation in the notes that leads to a physical nature that makes my music sound alive.
Every designer that I have talked to tells me that without question their products need a certain amount of time to burn in and sound their best. Wells Audio will tell you that his amps and dacs need 400-500 hrs to electrically stabilize and sound their best. That is a really long time. Cen.Grand states 300 hrs. Most recommend a minimum of 100 hrs. Also, most now have return windows that are long enough to give you the time to properly immerse yourself in the product before having to make a final decision. Whether or not it is measurable doesn't mean that it is wrong. I am not in a position to agree or disagree with the stated recommendations. It is a recommendation, not a MUST. I never leave a piece of gear on for hundreds of hours without listening to it and then come back to it a week later. I don't for several reasons. Most importantly, I am too impatient and I want to listen. Another reason is that I believe that if it doesn't sound good out of the box I am not going to like it 300 hrs later. I know for myself that some of the burn in is my brain adjusting and I don’t like to deprive myself of that chance to learn about the product as it is burning in. That being said, I have without question liked something a lot out of the box and then 300 hrs later liked it even more. I have yet to own something that I didn’t like out of the box and ended up loving it 300 hrs later. So something is happening that I cannot explain. The wonders of audio. The unexplained becomes something real even when I can’t back it up with data. Sensory experiences are the best kind because it leaves me with a sense of wonder.
To keep this thread on message, the Cen.Grand Super Clock came out of the box sounding wonderful. It was a bit dark in the treble, and the low end was a smidge bloated in the mid bass. The bass was the first thing that I heard improve. It became faster and more fluid. Then the treble integrated more completely to the upper midrange around 100 hrs and my worry about the treble being dark turned into an understanding that the saturation coupled with the DACs innate ability to nail tone turned that darkness into resolution and air. I listened as I went so I got to hear these transformations as they occurred. I remember very distinctly the listening session where the sound became fully integrated. All of a sudden the light turned on and I could feel the music in the nape of my neck and it wouldn’t let go. I don’t know whether I became accustomed to the sound or something occurred electrically. But the owner of Cen.Grand told me this would happen, so I believe something electrically changed and the DAC was now playing to its full potential. Just my two cents… Since it is a penny for your thoughts, someone is making a penny.
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geoffalter11
Headphoneus Supremus
Here is a great article on break-in or burn-in written by one of the great DAC and Music Server designers and builders in the world. His name is Ben Zwickel and he makes one of the great R2R DACs on the planet.
https://www.mojo-audio.com/blog/breaking-in-cables-and-components/
m-i-c-k-e-y
Headphoneus Supremus
Well this has popped out in 6moons.com.
GLS1.0 syncronized media player having a novel sync link (independent clock and data lines similar to I2S -> expansion slot on DAC). Due for release this October.
GLS1.0 syncronized media player having a novel sync link (independent clock and data lines similar to I2S -> expansion slot on DAC). Due for release this October.
project86
Headphoneus Supremus
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Definitely intrigued by the upcoming GLS1.0 streamer. JianHui Deng of Cen.Grand worked with Intel directly on the technology, which is interesting because in the past (when the company was focused more on digital media players) he worked with Marvell and the result was kind of a big deal. He basically worked with Marvell to enable external clocking mode on their decoding chips, so Cen.Grand could then add higher quality clocks for the audio stage. And that sort of became the standard moving forward for those types of devices, across various brands.
I've discussed this product with him and so far it goes totally over my head, but apparently he's doing something unique here. So very much looking forward to hearing how it materializes in terms of real-word audio results.
I've discussed this product with him and so far it goes totally over my head, but apparently he's doing something unique here. So very much looking forward to hearing how it materializes in terms of real-word audio results.
Looks nice and matches perfectly with the DSDAC 1.0
Is it just an offline media player? Are there any streaming functions like Roon Ready and Qobuz?
Is it just an offline media player? Are there any streaming functions like Roon Ready and Qobuz?
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