[dadracer2]

You can’t bypass some physics laws - those OLED pixel will burn out eventually.

Ok fair enough but honestly I’d just settle for a real answer about streaming. I am happy to wait though if needed!

 

[everyusername]

Android. Android is everywhere. The sad reality when all alternatives are close to disappearing...

Yep, these Android devices aren’t for me. I’ll never buy an Android based DAP again. It’s a shame that Cayin are going in this direction, but I guess it’s what most people are looking for.

 

[blotmouse]

All these old concerns about using Android... rofl. It's like saying Mac's are good at design and PC aren't. Old info hangs around forever.

 

[everyusername]

All these old concerns about using Android... rofl. It's like saying Mac's are good at design and PC aren't. Old info hangs around forever.

It’s not a concern, just a preference. My first DAP was Android based and it wasn’t for me. So I moved on to something that was!

I’ve never tried any of Cayin’s gear, but have heard good things. Look forward to getting a chance at some point.

 

[TheHighlander]

Ward and in Love already

 

[Andykong]

Yep, these Android devices aren’t for me. I’ll never buy an Android based DAP again. It’s a shame that Cayin are going in this direction, but I guess it’s what most people are looking for.

Wander how shame that can be?

The biggest difficulties to develop a high-end purist DAP is not lack of streaming support or customer base. The availability of appropriate MCU is where our hands are tied.

DAP is a such a niche market that the semiconductor industry can't care less. The MCU of the current "purist" DAP are, in most cases, come from the MP4/video playback devices and non-Android "smartphone" that were commonly available in last (two?) decade. When Android become the industry norm of multimedia and mobile appliance, new MP4/video playback devices and smartphones are all Android based (let's skipped the iOS option for this discussion). The semiconductor industry responds effectively and devoted all their resource to develop MCU with Android system support in mind. As a result, No one is making non-Android based MCU with solution for multi-media device. DAP industry (I know, it is so small that I am not sure if we can all it an industry) is a downstream industry from mobile appliance, when the non-Android based mobile appliance declined, non-Android based DAP are having a hard time to stay competitive.

In reality, DAP uses surplus MCU developed for mobile phone. We are kind of 2-3 years behind the mobile phone market. When the MCU was obsoleted in mobile phone market, they'll start to consider niche application like DAP in order to clear their surplus inventory. Look at mobile phone market, are there any premium choice that is non-Android and non-iOS? That tells you in advance that you don't have a lot of choice if never buy an Android based DAP again.

I don't feel shame about this, we are working very hard to deliver the best result out of many unspeakable constraints. I think we are doing fairly good already.

 

[Alino]

All these old concerns about using Android... rofl. It's like saying Mac's are good at design and PC aren't. Old info hangs around forever.

I have had 3 Android daps. I do not need streaming services much. I always needed portability and best sound. From the times I could listen to a QP1R and a pair of Lotoos (LP6k and LPGT) it has been clear the system interface gives you many cool services but impacts, damages the pure sound quality. This was my experience. I'd rather have pure players best. And because ot this I have had a last Black Copper N8 too which I like pretty much, 'simple' UI included.

 

[Andykong]

I have had 3 Android daps. I do not need streaming services much. I always needed portability and best sound. From the times I could listen to a QP1R and a pair of Lotoos (LP6k and LPGT) it has been clear the system interface gives you many cool services but impacts, damages the pure sound quality. This was my experience. I'd rather have pure players best. And because ot this I have had a N8 too.

The UI and playback control are important considerations to a lot of purist users.

• Do you want to carry a large music library (10,000 titles or above) in your DAP?
• Do you want to customise playlist conveniently? or enjoy features like dynamic playlist?
• Are you a folder based user? or you want to select your music from different combination of music tag?
• Can I suffer playback a particular artist, or music genre + artist, or 10 albums that I handpick?
• How long do I have to wait in order to see the Album art thumbnail shows up when I scroll through my 1,000 (or 10,000 in some cases) album collection?
• How deep can your folder system handle? Can I organise my music library folders in 10 hierarchy levels (we have a practical case when the deepest folder of a N3Pro users is 13 layers?

I frequently run into the questions that "iPod can do that 10 years ago, why can't you?". However, what is the biggest storage you can find in an iPod? 256GB? 1TB?

The purist DAP market is niche, very niche, and a lot of users in this market are demanding and persistence. They have to otherwise they'll accept other options long time ago. Unfortunately, when we used MCU developed all the way back when 128GB was the biggest storage memory available, there is a lot of limitation for demanding "modern" users.

 

[immortalsoul]

I don't care if Cayin N8ii is going to be Android or not as long it will sound great. All I care is sound quality. I have the Cayin N8 and is a good sounding dap, but I want Great from CA N8ii, not just good. I have high hopes

 

[Skullar]

I personally dont have problem with android interface itself. And i dont think it will end up limiting SQ anymore. Problem is its power requirements and the screen size wars that also adx do it.
Let it be android its fine. But just strip it of any resource intensive features that are meant for smartphone and are useless/unnecessary for a dap. Im sure this would allow daps to be smaller due to smaller battery etc. Or am i getting it wrong here?

 

[everyusername]

I don't feel shame about this, we are working very hard to deliver the best result out of many unspeakable constraints. I think we are doing fairly good already.

Sorry Andy, I didn't mean to imply that you should feel shame about this!

There is clearly a lot that goes into building a DAP that I have no knowledge of.

Thanks for pulling back the curtain a bit and explaining some of the challenges you face. I appreciate the insight.

 

[TheHighlander]

@Andykong . Its difficult to implement Dual OS? One for the purist and an Android based? That maybe we can choose when we start the N8II? Thats a real question, not complaining about N8II be an Android based. That way I think we can have the best of both world.

 

[Whitigir]

Wander how shame that can be?

The biggest difficulties to develop a high-end purist DAP is not lack of streaming support or customer base. The availability of appropriate MCU is where our hands are tied.

DAP is a such a niche market that the semiconductor industry can't care less. The MCU of the current "purist" DAP are, in most cases, come from the MP4/video playback devices and non-Android "smartphone" that were commonly available in last (two?) decade. When Android become the industry norm of multimedia and mobile appliance, new MP4/video playback devices and smartphones are all Android based (let's skipped the iOS option for this discussion). The semiconductor industry responds effectively and devoted all their resource to develop MCU with Android system support in mind. As a result, No one is making non-Android based MCU with solution for multi-media device. DAP industry (I know, it is so small that I am not sure if we can all it an industry) is a downstream industry from mobile appliance, when the non-Android based mobile appliance declined, non-Android based DAP are having a hard time to stay competitive.

In reality, DAP uses surplus MCU developed for mobile phone. We are kind of 2-3 years behind the mobile phone market. When the MCU was obsoleted in mobile phone market, they'll start to consider niche application like DAP in order to clear their surplus inventory. Look at mobile phone market, are there any premium choice that is non-Android and non-iOS? That tells you in advance that you don't have a lot of choice if never buy an Android based DAP again.

I don't feel shame about this, we are working very hard to deliver the best result out of many unspeakable constraints. I think we are doing fairly good already.

Allow me to crunch some number Andy, Snapdragon 850 is merely $299-$399 each (One plus 7T). Now, considering a niche DAP is $3,999 which is 10x higher. So, if you are saying that 100k quantity minimum, that can easily be done with that price for 10K devices sold isn’t it ? Now, you only need to sell 2,000 units of N8II each year over 5 years period. However, I am sure you can sell more than that , be the first of it kind to be so advanced, that others looking jealousy at it

 

[Hooga]

In reality, DAP uses surplus MCU developed for mobile phone. We are kind of 2-3 years behind the mobile phone market. When the MCU was obsoleted in mobile phone market, they'll start to consider niche application like DAP in order to clear their surplus inventory. Look at mobile phone market, are there any premium choice that is non-Android and non-iOS? That tells you in advance that you don't have a lot of choice if never buy an Android based DAP again.

Hello Andy

the point you are making is very interesting and I'm curious to elaborate on it.

My question related to the "bolded" statement above fundamentally is "why" ?

Is it an economic issue? Hope not.
I would understand the approach when assuming to start a project for a lowend / lowbudget device: outdated hw is a monumental opportunity to compress costs and therefor prices and that's key on a project like that.
On the opposite end a highend device is targeted to the higher tier of the market, both technically and economically speaking.
How much more does state of the art hw cost to you, compared to outdated hw? Just tossing fake numbers here: 150$ vs 30$ ? So a net aggravation of 120$ per device.
Add you industrial markup, let's say 400%. That would mean that a "NX" device based on state of the art hw would need to be priced in the high 3K$ instead of the low 3K$. I doubt this would make much or even any difference on that device's target population. Am I wrong?

Is it maybe a technical issue? Big hw manufacturers are unwilling to support non-mainstream projects on state of the art models? (you would be getting too few pieces, and they would not dedicate tech support people to help you from the backend on modifications etc?)


Cheers,
Alberto

 

[horatiu]

Allow me to crunch some number Andy, Snapdragon 850 is merely $299-$399 each (One plus 7T). Now, considering a niche DAP is $3,999 which is 10x higher. So, if you are saying that 100k quantity minimum, that can easily be done with that price for 10K devices sold isn’t it ? Now, you only need to sell 2,000 units of N8II each year over 5 years period. However, I am sure you can sell more than that , be the first of it kind to be so advanced, that others looking jealousy at it

SD 850 would not be a good choice. Better go for a more recent mid-tier 700 or 600 series. In a dap you don't need the peak performance you need in a smartphone. Instead, you need an efficient cpu for long use. Think of marathon vs sprint. In a phone you need peak preformance to react to user input. In a dap you need to decode and process audio for several hours. A SD850 would overheat and throttle back considerably.
Also, $299-399 is a lot, even if the dap costs 4000. You are simply looking at the bills of materials, but the manufacturer has to recover the RND costs, not just materials.
Besides, if they price this at 4000 they are not going to sell many, particularly considering the price of SP2000T.