[Metalingus]

I’m not a math expert but someone please tell me if this can drive VC?

 

[InvisibleInk]

The PEQ looks like the one I have in my Tempotec Variations V6. That one is a feature of the HiBy Music Player. With that PEQ I can import settings from a text file using the APO format. Can we expect to import the same way with the N3Ultra?

 

[Kobe4ever]

Well I guess SQ is of utmost priority for many of us. Availability of 3rd party apps are definitely welcomed, but am I paying a couple thousands more for that? Probably not for me, I live in a cave anyways.

Really there is still the story that only by listening offline you have the best SQ ? I have TOTL devices and I listen to everything at my best, both online and offline. Not having streaming options in 2024 is out of time .

 

[coldrain]

Update before CanJam New York 2024.

Since we only built a handful of N3Ultra at this stage due to a limited number of custom-built lithium batteries, I can only check out the N3Ultra at Cayin Zhuhai headquarters. I have my question list when I grab the Engineers and they have provided some quick details for my reference. I have taken some photos with my mobile phone during the discussion, so please pardon the quality of the photos.

Gen3 Vacuum Tube Circuit

This is our second DAP using JAN6418. The N3Pro was our first attempt and we have spent a lot of effort to install a pair of JAN6418 into a relatively compact DAP chassis. Unfortunately, we need to accept the following two limitations at the 2020 implementation:

• JAN6418 is a Subminiature Pentode tube; we need a pair for the stereo circuit, a set of 4 for the balanced circuit. Since we can only install a pair of JAN6418 in N3Pro, the tube timber circuit can only facilitate single-ended phone out, the balanced phone out is solid-state only.
• While we have passed down the Suspension installation technique from N8 to N3Pro, the filament of JAN6418 is a lot more sensitive to vibration when compared to the LED filament in Nutube, so the N3Pro is optimized for some scenarios but still suffers from ringing in other scenarios such as knocking on DAP, holding the DAP and then place it on a table or knocking on the table when DAP is placed on it.

With 4 years of portable vacuum tube R&D in our arms (since N3Pro) and the Gen3 Vacuum tube circuit after N30LE, we have improved the JAN6418 implementation by

1. Anti-shock Anti-vibration Installation

A newly designed custom-built shock absorption silicon housing that enables vertical suspended mounting. We incur this design from N8ii and provided significantly improved shock and vibration absorption. You can now shake it, tab on it, and even run around with it, the ringing effect is very minimal even with sensitive IEM. Make sure you try this in CanJam New York if you have the opportunity.

The 2024 version JAN6418 installation involved a custom-designed CNC-machined center frame, revised shock absorption silicone housings that provided better protection to each JAN6418 independently, and a “screwless” vertical-mounted installation.







2. Balanced phone output with two JAN6418

How can this be done? This is technically impossible, so we cheated. The DAC circuit and headphone amplification circuit of N3Ultra are fully differentiated but the timbre circuit, since we are using a pair of JAN6418 only, is singled-ended. We need to perform Balanced to Single-end before the timbre circuit, and Single-ended to Balanced after the timbre circuit. While N3Ultra is not a fully differentiated design from source to output, we have included some serious engineering to handle the correction properly. We are so confident that we even explain the constraint in advance.

Can we install four JAN6418 into N3Ultra to achieve a genuine fully-balanced design? This will involve more space and we can easily achieve that by increasing the width of N3Pro by 10mm. Unfortunately, using a quad-set of JAN6418 will consume more power, shorten the duration, generate more heat, and increase background noise, those are the real problems that stop us from using four JAN6418 in U3Ultra.

3. JAN6418 as Voltage Amplifier

The N3Pro employs JAN6418 as a buffer in its timbre circuit, it offers beautiful tube sonic characteristics to single-ended phone output. The Gen3 Vacuum Tube Circuit delivers a fuller tube sound to both single-ended and balanced phone out and lines out of the DAP, and we need a stronger output from the timbre circuit to achieve this goal, the JAN6418 is not connected as a low gain voltage amplifier in N3Ultra and we added a FET buffer immediately after the JAN6418 to enhance the output. Last but not least, since JAN6418 is a Pentode tube, we can connect it in triode and ultra-linear modes and use them as Classic and Modern tube timbre respectively. If you have heard the dual tube timbre of N30LE, you’ll be amazed that this is a simple circuit design that can achieve a similar dual timbre effect cost-effectively.

DAC circuit

The N3Ultra uses two pieces of AK4493S from AKM as DAC. A powerful FPGA has enabled the DAC can decode up to 32bit 768kHz in PCM, and 22.5792MHz (DSD512) in DSD.

Parametric EQ

This is a feature that has been on our To-Do List for several years. Yes, we heard you, and late is better than never.

We are still working on the PMEQ UI so the final control might be slightly different from the screen photo I showed below. You can add up to FIVE bands in the PMEQ section, each band is equivalent to a digital filter that enables you to shape the sound output of the DAP. To properly specify the characteristic of each band (filter), you need to specific

• Frequency: the center frequency that you want to apply the adjustment in each band (filter)
• Q: the ratio of center frequency to bandwidth, and when you fix the center frequency, then bandwidth is inversely proportional to Q, meaning that as you raise the Q, you narrow the bandwidth.
• Gain: control the aptitude (boost or cut) for the center frequency specified in each band (filter)
• Type: Choice of three types: Low Shelf, Peaking, and High Shelf
• Enable or Disable a particular band, this will allow you to hear the difference of one particular band (with or without) specifically.

The Low shelf is typically the left-most (bass) frequency that you want to adjust, and the High shelf is the right-most (treble) frequency that you want to achieve, and the remaining bands should defined as peak type. The low-shelf filters and high-shelf filters act like a Low pass filter (LPF) and a high pass filter (HPF) respectively, but shelf filters can be used for boosting and cuts in the gain setting, while the pass filters can only be used for cuts.

As you set up the bands, the implication of each set will be stimulated in the FR graph above the band controls. This will help you to visualize the effect of your PMEQ settings.







System Configuration

The N3Ultra is powered by a Snapdragon CPU and operated under Android 8.1. While the system hardware is capable of running common music-related applications, the JAN6418 vacuum tube is extremely sensitive to wireless interference. We can’t quantify the difference between JAN6418 and, for example, the KORG Nutube 6P1 scientifically, but saying the JAN6418 is 10 times more sensitive is a conservative guess in our experience, and yet Cayin is probably the most experienced team on this issue in the portable audio industry. As a result, we make the N3Ultra puritans DAP without Wi-Fi or Bluetooth capability.

Can we include a WiFi feature and direct our users to use Wi-Fi while the DAP is not playing back? Yes, been there, and done that with the original N8, we received lots of user complaints over the years, and occasionally returned machines for warranty and repair service simply because users forgot to turn off the WiFi after turning on the WiFi "accidentally" or after the OTA firmware update.

Can we remove the WiFi feature and keep Bluetooth for wireless DAC? Yes, been there, and done that with the N3Pro, and we received user complaints that their sensitive IEM can’t use the wireless DAC features because of Bluetooth interference, in their opinion, when we provide the feature, we have the responsibility to make it workable for everyone.

From a business perspective, we want to sell more N3Ultra, and adding streaming support is the way to go, especially when we have the hardware and operating system to do just that. This is a tough decision because we are limiting streaming support through USB DAC only, but this is our choice to become a responsible brand. If we can’t provide noise-free streaming, we better take that feature away and make sure the JAN6418 timber circuit is performing satisfactorily.

Price, Date, and Availability

The MSRP of N3Ultra is US$529, and the DAP will be available by the second week of April 2024. The actual available date in your local shops might vary as they are subject to logistic and local sales arrangements. We shall host an official livestream session in Mainland China on the evening of 28th March 2024, providing full specifications, functional diagrams, and technical/engineering details of N3Ultra, please mark these dates if you are interested in the N3Ultra.

Why Cayin using Android 8.1, if remove Wifi and BT support? Is Snapdragon not able to support bare-metal linux?

 

[pietro77]

Yep, android is disappointment...

 

[nocturne19]

Really there is still the story that only by listening offline you have the best SQ ? I have TOTL devices and I listen to everything at my best, both online and offline. Not having streaming options in 2024 is out of time .

No doubt that N30LE and SP3000 have TOTL SQ, I'm just saying everything has a cost - you want more functions? Sure, but you have to pay. I agree this is a rare occasion in TOTL products, more like something you would find in low/mid tier market due to fierce competition. Subjectively speaking, at the same price I prefer dongles > DAPs due to their SQ and portability. Yes you have that flashy screen and system, but how about SQ? Is it night-and-day different from your phone/tablet? Not sure about others, but probably not me. In that case, why don't I purchase another phone instead? At least it has better functionality I guess?

I also don't find android necessary to access one's online database. Bluetooth/USB DAC is pretty convenient. I suggest you try out L&P/Hifiman products - yes they are not android based, but they sound pretty nice through BT, being very close to local playback.

At the end of the day I don't see any fault in our views, just a emphasis on different parts of the market. I do NOT believe SQ is a necessary compromise for streaming, though it happens frequently in low-mid tier products.

 

[Kuze]

Manufactures need to stop making excuses, if it requires 4 tubes to do balanced just do it! You are targeting audiophiles we kinda don't have a limit when it comes on to gear.. I aspire to look like this guy one day going trough an airport.

R2R + Balanced tubes S/N: >124

 

[twister6]

I'm a bit confused about N3U streaming discussion Cayin already makes a bunch of streaming DAPs. N3 Pro was their entry level playback only DAP without streaming but allowing a wired or BT/wireless connection to your streaming source. N3 Ultra gets rid of BT/wireless connection due to interference with these particular tubes, keeping only wired connection. So, you can think of N3U as a wired dual-tube dongle to use with your smartphone or tablet or laptop. Plus, it has a battery, so you don't have to drain your smartphone. And as a bonus, you can load your own files for a local playback. Nothing more or less

 

[PopZeus]

If the N3U can provide similar sound quality to the RU7, with tubey goodness, that's definitely a worthy upgrade. The issue for me is-- can Cayin outdo their dongle DACs with an entry level DAP? I feel like especially in the portable space, the bar for sound quality has gotten more affordable since the N3 Pro was out.

 

[Splutje]

Anyone knows what the output power is in single and balanced? Can't see it mentioned.

And I am very curious if I can use it in my pocket while walking the dog, how hot it will become and if walking also makes it ring.

 

[Lohb]

Cayin stuff is just great now....that sweet sweet musicality that is brought in.

 

[LostnAmerica]

Well I guess SQ is of utmost priority for many of us. Availability of 3rd party apps are definitely welcomed, but am I paying a couple thousands more for that? Probably not for me, I live in a cave anyways.

SQ is for me also, completely agree. but I live in a trailer.

 

[123peter]

This is a very interesting thread because in May 2024, Astell & Kern is to present the flagship version of the DAP SP3000T (~$1500)
based on 2 pcs of the same RAYTHEON JAN6418 tubes.
From the @[B]Andykong[/B] description of Cayin N3Ultra , it is clear how difficult it is to use this type of lamps in DAP.
At the same time, we remember that the previous A&K2000T model had problems with noise when using WiFi at 5GHz.

I wonder which of these two devices will be better able to use these lamps at such different prices.

 

[Murgatroid]

I find it interesting that the OS choice for many is either the lightweight HibyOS Linux based OS using an X1000E SOC (as used on the N3Pro), or a Snapdragon running Android. It sounds like Hiby is not working on porting HibyOS to a faster CPU if Cayin is moving to Android. The smaller OS definitely has it's disadvantages in speed and resources. I am guessing, since the N3U will be running Android 8.1, that the Snapdragon 425/430 will be used and that Cayin or Hiby Music will be the player. Will there be any possibility of installing an APK from an SD card to use a different player (although the popular ones require the Google play store)?

It's a shame there are no options for BT or Wifi, though, but I understand the tradeoffs.

 

[audionewbi]

@Andykong In case you want to just hear the tube, will the single ended be not going thru the upconversion/downconversion needed for 4.4mm?
Meaning, if I want to get the less processing, will 3.5mm offer that?