Cayin N30LE DAP: A Transformative Milestone (30th Anniv. Limited Edition)
Sep 19, 2023 at 12:46 PM Post #1,156 of 2,935
I can only imagine how nice the Jewel + Orpheus sounds with this DAP.

Orpheus would pair SO well for Grand Maestro but I cannot stomach buying a cable that cost me more than the CIEM 😂
Well that's what I told myself and then I saw an Orphy at a good price in the classifieds... but reading both @gLer and @Tokpakorlo reviews, I started reading about FTS, 1950 shielding, OTL etc but none evoked such passion as Orpheus. I mean when I read those guys, it's like I read how I feel about N30... which means something very special is happening there... so I broke my own limits and rules like I did for N30...

It should arrive tomorrow, maybe the end(game) is near ❤️‍🔥 (yeah one should never write this in this hobby but still, it's the best times these days)
 
Sep 19, 2023 at 1:49 PM Post #1,157 of 2,935
For me, the N30LE really elevate Jewel + OrphyS combo to another level. I didn't feel it with N8ii before so I'm a happy man now (not so much with my wallet 😂)
I hope all of you with a faulty unit get the best possible solution from Cayin and receive a working product in the end 🙏
Very interesting: you have exactly the same experience I had: I aways felt that Orphy + Jewel was superior than the N8ii. I liked that DAP, but the IEM / cable was at another level. Now I feel that I found the perfect pair for them. To the point that I am not even curious about the Amber Pearl.
The thing is that all these three pieces (Jewel + Orphy + N30) have an emotional reproduction of music that is extremely synergetic, so they keep improving on that characteristic when they are in the same chain. Just try some female vocals (anything from Ane Brun or Agnes Obel for example). It gets into goosebumps territory immediately. I am also revisiting all my Benjamin Clementine albums and I never heard his voice sounding so real and expressive.

This is indeed a special combo…
 
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Sep 19, 2023 at 2:09 PM Post #1,158 of 2,935
Quick testing updates; I'll make a follow-up post on my thoughts as to how I would like to see this addressed/fixed.

I have more to test, but so far I've tried the following IEMs/headphones:
  • Audeze LCD-5 (14Ω @ 90 dB/mW) - No Hiss
  • Empire Ears Odin (3Ω @ 108 dB/mW) - No Hiss
  • Focal Utopia (80Ω @ 104 dB/mW) - No Hiss
  • Sennheiser IE600 (18Ω @ 118 dB/V) - HISSES
  • Sennheiser HD660S2 (300Ω @ 104 dB/V) - No Hiss
  • ZMF Atrium (300Ω @ 96 dB/mW) - No Hiss
All tested in Class A via 4.4mm output.

All cables are either stock with native 4.4mm connections OR stock 4-pin XLR via a 4.4mm to female XLR adapter.

"No Hiss" means I couldn't hear ANY hiss at all, even only playing digital silence (to keep the amp on). And "HISSES" means pronounced, waterfall/white-noise hiss that's audible over the music (or digital silence).

If I didn't have the IE600 ... for this unit (was different with the first, which I'm convinced has a different problem), I would not know there was any issue. The other IEMs/headphones have entirely black backgrounds and no hiss at all, even playing digital silence.

Since I have one here, I stuck an iFi IEMatch inline with the IE600 ... and that takes the hiss away entirely - probably by putting the load back in a state where it does not excite the instability/hiss in the amplifier (rather than simply attenuating the hiss itself).
 
Sep 19, 2023 at 2:34 PM Post #1,159 of 2,935
Very interesting: you have exactly the same experience I had: I aways felt that Orphy + Jewel was superior than the N8ii. I liked that DAP, but the IEM / cable was at another level. Now I feel that I found the perfect pair for them. To the point that I am not even curious about the Amber Pearl.
The thing is that all these three pieces (Jewel + Orphy + N30) have an emotional reproduction of music that is extremely synergetic, so they keep improving on that characteristic when they are in the same chain. Just try some female vocals (anything from Ane Brun or Agnes Obel for example). It gets into goosebumps territory immediately. I am also revisiting all my Benjamin Clementine albums and I never heard his voice sounding so real and expressive.

This is indeed a special combo…
Well, actually my unit is the AP version but without the IEM (I split the purchase with my friend and he get the IEM) . I can say that you don't need the bundled IEM to enjoy the DAP, because I'm sure the benefit from the upgraded part applies too to any other IEM's. It doesn't mean that I don't want to try it with the bundled IEM though. Maybe someday the bundle will reunite either on me or my friend 😁
 
Sep 19, 2023 at 3:18 PM Post #1,160 of 2,935
[Tagging @Andykong again, since he will need to carry this forward.]

The remedy I would like to see (and that I don’t think Cayin will go for):

Cayin* guarantees a 100% (full MSRP**), no questions asked, refund, at any time, between now and a proper fix being established and the fully functioning, repaired unit being back in the owners’ hands.

This is to protect users that decide to wait for a fix, in good faith, without knowing how long that is going to take, or what it is going to entail, and then learning that it will take longer or be more involved than they are then willing to deal with.

Further, Cayin extends the warranty (including all shipping, labor and parts costs) for this particular issue to “lifetime” and makes it transferrable to subsequent owners. ALL repaired units should be supplied with a repair certificate, indicating the associated unit’s serial number.

This is to protect the resale value and secondary owners who may be unaware of the issue.

Finally, once a fix is confirmed, and available, users can send their units in, at their convenience, for repair with the above terms still in place, at any point in the unit's lifetime (will need to be defined; maybe a 5 year limit).

This is to protect those users who may choose to wait until just before they elect to resell the unit, as they don’t have the issue/or it doesn’t occur with their IEMs, headphones or cables and thus don’t need to be inconvenienced in their usage, nor penalized later on.

---


The above doesn't ask for compensation or consideration in anything other than a swift, complete repair and the option not to deal with further hassle or inconvenience at whatever point the customer decides "enough is enough".

It lets users that want to/aren't (immediately) affected, continue to enjoy their units, while protecting the value/performance of the unit later on.

For example, I decide to wait out the repair. It then turns out that with all the shipping, fixing and testing, the unit will be out of my hands for 6 weeks. I don't want to deal with that, and am not happy with the unit as-is for the long term, so I can opt out, at that point, without penalty and still receive a 100% refund.

I think this is reasonable in light of:

It is currently not being possible to predict what headphones/cables will be affected by these issues, nor even if it will be the same for every unit, due to the nature of tolerances etc. Therefore, it should be assumed that anycurrent unit could exhibit this issue in the future with a new IEM or headphone (or cable) pairing.

For example, I’m an EE Odin user and everything seems fine with my unit. A year later, I buy the IE600 … and those result in the hiss problem emerging and are unlistenable. Now I know I have a faulty unit, and no chance of a refund from my dealer (entirely reasonably).

---

For me:

Right now, I have the option to return my 2nd N30LE for a refund.

This is the safe choice.

It also means I’m giving up on the N30LE, which is by far the best DAP or transportable unit I’ve heard (and I’ve heard all that I’m aware of). Due to its limited-edition nature, I doubt I’d be able to get another with a warranty/refund option and/or confirmed repair.

I'd prefer NOT to give up the N30LE, and I can muddle through with other IEMs and/or IEMatch for a modest period, and assuming a quick turnaround on repairs (a couple of weeks, once available), but there is a very limited degree to which I am willing to roll the dice on this one.

I have to decide very quickly as do, I'm sure, others. So a prompt response, or an alternate proposal would be greatly appreciated.

---
*It's up to Cayin how they work this out with their dealers, but I don't think the dealers should be penalized.
**I don't care what the dealer margin is, just that the end-customer is made whole.
 
Sep 19, 2023 at 3:19 PM Post #1,161 of 2,935
Oh, and I should add ... sticking that IEMatch inline? Absolutely changes the sound for the IEMs I've tried it with and generally not for the better - so it is, at best, a very temporary workaround.

...

If you want some silent test tracks, they're available in various forms - including things like "Silent Tracks of Various Useful Lengths" (Brett Black) on TIDAL.
 
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Sep 19, 2023 at 3:48 PM Post #1,162 of 2,935
Further, Cayin extends the warranty (including all shipping, labor and parts costs) for this particular issue to “lifetime” and makes it transferrable to subsequent owners. ALL repaired units should be supplied with a repair certificate, indicating the associated unit’s serial number.
These are ridiculous suggestions.
I understand that you're unhappy and don't like to wait for an unknown time till the issues are fixed, but transfersble Lifetime warranty on an electronic device is delusional.
 
Sep 19, 2023 at 3:49 PM Post #1,163 of 2,935
These are ridiculous suggestions.
I understand that you're unhappy and don't like to wait for an unknown time till the issues are fixed, but transfersble Lifetime warranty on an electronic device is delusional.
It’s not delusional at all, considering it’s for this one specific issue only.
 
Sep 19, 2023 at 3:52 PM Post #1,164 of 2,935
It’s not delusional at all, considering it’s for this one specific issue only.
Yeah somehow interpreted it as "for a unit that had this issue"

For this issue only it would be reasonable
 
Sep 19, 2023 at 3:52 PM Post #1,165 of 2,935
[Tagging @Andykong again, since he will need to carry this forward.]

The remedy I would like to see (and that I don’t think Cayin will go for):

Cayin* guarantees a 100% (full MSRP**), no questions asked, refund, at any time, between now and a proper fix being established and the fully functioning, repaired unit being back in the owners’ hands.

This is to protect users that decide to wait for a fix, in good faith, without knowing how long that is going to take, or what it is going to entail, and then learning that it will take longer or be more involved than they are then willing to deal with.

Further, Cayin extends the warranty (including all shipping, labor and parts costs) for this particular issue to “lifetime” and makes it transferrable to subsequent owners. ALL repaired units should be supplied with a repair certificate, indicating the associated unit’s serial number.

This is to protect the resale value and secondary owners who may be unaware of the issue.

Finally, once a fix is confirmed, and available, users can send their units in, at their convenience, for repair with the above terms still in place, at any point in the unit's lifetime (will need to be defined; maybe a 5 year limit).

This is to protect those users who may choose to wait until just before they elect to resell the unit, as they don’t have the issue/or it doesn’t occur with their IEMs, headphones or cables and thus don’t need to be inconvenienced in their usage, nor penalized later on.

---


The above doesn't ask for compensation or consideration in anything other than a swift, complete repair and the option not to deal with further hassle or inconvenience at whatever point the customer decides "enough is enough".

It lets users that want to/aren't (immediately) affected, continue to enjoy their units, while protecting the value/performance of the unit later on.

For example, I decide to wait out the repair. It then turns out that with all the shipping, fixing and testing, the unit will be out of my hands for 6 weeks. I don't want to deal with that, and am not happy with the unit as-is for the long term, so I can opt out, at that point, without penalty and still receive a 100% refund.

I think this is reasonable in light of:

It is currently not being possible to predict what headphones/cables will be affected by these issues, nor even if it will be the same for every unit, due to the nature of tolerances etc. Therefore, it should be assumed that anycurrent unit could exhibit this issue in the future with a new IEM or headphone (or cable) pairing.

For example, I’m an EE Odin user and everything seems fine with my unit. A year later, I buy the IE600 … and those result in the hiss problem emerging and are unlistenable. Now I know I have a faulty unit, and no chance of a refund from my dealer (entirely reasonably).

---

For me:

Right now, I have the option to return my 2nd N30LE for a refund.

This is the safe choice.

It also means I’m giving up on the N30LE, which is by far the best DAP or transportable unit I’ve heard (and I’ve heard all that I’m aware of). Due to its limited-edition nature, I doubt I’d be able to get another with a warranty/refund option and/or confirmed repair.

I'd prefer NOT to give up the N30LE, and I can muddle through with other IEMs and/or IEMatch for a modest period, and assuming a quick turnaround on repairs (a couple of weeks, once available), but there is a very limited degree to which I am willing to roll the dice on this one.

I have to decide very quickly as do, I'm sure, others. So a prompt response, or an alternate proposal would be greatly appreciated.

---
*It's up to Cayin how they work this out with their dealers, but I don't think the dealers should be penalized.
**I don't care what the dealer margin is, just that the end-customer is made whole.
Great ideas! I think this is a well thought out concept for their policy, though as you said, there's no telling what Cayin is willing or unwilling to do at this point. I just hope that they can hone this down to one specific problem with a definitive fix, and not various problems with different components on different units. I love the idea of extending the warranty and discretionary repair window for the owner, and providing transferability. In my case, my current iems and cables play with no issues. If I was allowed to send the DAP in at my convenience, during my ownership, I would likely do that at a later date once the dust has settled, assuming the later I waited the faster the turnaround time would probably be. Not to mention, it would help ease the early upfront mayhem Cayin is probably dealing with right now.
 
Sep 19, 2023 at 4:12 PM Post #1,166 of 2,935
These are ridiculous suggestions.
I understand that you're unhappy and don't like to wait for an unknown time till the issues are fixed, but transfersble Lifetime warranty on an electronic device is delusional.

I did say I didn't think it was something Cayin would go for.

And I qualified "lifetime" further into my post as, perhaps, 5 years ... but something that would need to be defined (I don't mean to imply "forever").

At the same time, I don't think it is at all reasonable to have customers sitting on a $5,000 purchase, not knowing what a fix will entail, or how long they'll be without their units, or even if they are affected (because, drawing on my experience, I suspect ALL units are, and its just a case of what it is going to take to hit the limits for a given unit). They might think they're in the clear today, and their next IEM winds up triggering the issue ... which is very bad place to be.

Regardless, I was just stating how I would like to see this handled.

---

Beyond that ...

I'm actually not that unhappy. Quite sanguine about it, actually. I'm in a better situation than I was; at least now the unit I have isn't a) exhibiting a problem in all modes on all outputs and b) doesn't have to get over 100F to start acting up - and then acts up in an inconsistent fashion ... which makes it much more likely to be fixable (and is clearly the "common" issue).

But right now?

I don't have to wait at all.

And I'm not going to run out my return period on hopes, guesses and futures.

I can return it for a refund and absent a bit of hassle and a little disappointment (because it really does sound better than any DAP/transportable I've heard), and a big dent in my confidence in anything Cayin do in the future, I'm not really any the worse off.

NOT doing that requires some assurances that I'm not going to regret just walking away. I made a suggestion as to what I'd like those to be. It's a starting point. We'll see where it goes.

---

Something to bear in mind (not "you" specifically, just in general):

So if the biasing of the amplifier really is the issue, and the fix, understand that bias points on Class A and AB amplifiers are chosen for a reason. If the chosen values are too "close to the edge" that, within parts tolerances and variances in loads, that they sometimes result in hiss or amplifier instability, you're going to be backing off those limits. That has two potentials ... a shift in sound and a shift in power output (lower, most likely). Might be VERY small. Might be inaudible. But it will be a change.
 
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Sep 19, 2023 at 4:22 PM Post #1,167 of 2,935
so sad to see that instead of discussing the qualities of this product we have to waste so much time and energy with troubleshooting and concerns…
 
Sep 19, 2023 at 4:46 PM Post #1,168 of 2,935
On a more fun note ...

Just piddling with N30LE/IE600, even though the IE600 needs the IEMatch to not hiss like a very irritated hissy-thing having a hissy-fit on hissy-fit-hill (a little bit of masochism on my part I guess, as the IEMatch doesn't really do the IE600 any favors) ... the width of the soundstage on Amber Rubarth's "Novocaine" is VAST. Well outside the confines of my head or where I spatially put the IEMs themselves.
 
Sep 19, 2023 at 4:58 PM Post #1,169 of 2,935
I did say I didn't think it was something Cayin would go for.

And I qualified "lifetime" further into my post as, perhaps, 5 years ... but something that would need to be defined (I don't mean to imply "forever").

At the same time, I don't think it is at all reasonable to have customers sitting on a $5,000 purchase, not knowing what a fix will entail, or how long they'll be without their units, or even if they are affected (because, drawing on my experience, I suspect ALL units are, and its just a case of what it is going to take to hit the limits for a given unit). They might think they're in the clear today, and their next IEM winds up triggering the issue ... which is very bad place to be.

Regardless, I was just stating how I would like to see this handled.

---

Beyond that ...

I'm actually not that unhappy. Quite sanguine about it, actually. I'm in a better situation than I was; at least now the unit I have isn't a) exhibiting a problem in all modes on all outputs and b) doesn't have to get over 100F to start acting up - and then acts up in an inconsistent fashion ... which makes it much more likely to be fixable (and is clearly the "common" issue).

But right now?

I don't have to wait at all.

And I'm not going to run out my return period on hopes, guesses and futures.

I can return it for a refund and absent a bit of hassle and a little disappointment (because it really does sound better than any DAP/transportable I've heard), and a big dent in my confidence in anything Cayin do in the future, I'm not really any the worse off.

NOT doing that requires some assurances that I'm not going to regret just walking away. I made a suggestion as to what I'd like those to be. It's a starting point. We'll see where it goes.

---

Something to bear in mind (not "you" specifically, just in general):

So if the biasing of the amplifier really is the issue, and the fix, understand that bias points on Class A and AB amplifiers are chosen for a reason. If the chosen values are too "close to the edge" that, within parts tolerances and variances in loads, that they sometimes result in hiss or amplifier instability, you're going to be backing off those limits. That has two potentials ... a shift in sound and a shift in power output (lower, most likely). Might be VERY small. Might be inaudible. But it will be a change.
Something I would say though is that the Amplifier design is phenomenally sophisticated and beats anything I have heard such that driving my Hifiman HE1000SE produces a more compelling sound than when I just use the DAC to drive my Shangri-la jr amp+Headphone 😳
On the other Cayin DAPs (N8ii, N7) this was the opposite. And I don't think I want to change that amp segment unless to a change that fully guarantees a better Sound, not one that says very little difference, I will hear the difference.
This is saying great work Cayin 👏 👍 @Andykong
 
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Sep 19, 2023 at 7:21 PM Post #1,170 of 2,935
Don't know if this is JUST on the N30LE, but trying to play a specific track in a Qobuz (latest version from Play Store) playlist sometimes results in a track one, or two, tracks lower down in the list playing. The screen registers the right track is being selected, but it plays either one, or two, tracks further into the play list. Seems to be worse the further through the playlist I make the selection.

Could easily an issue with the Qobuz Android app, but the first time I've seen something like this.

---

Had my first system freeze while closing apps. Required a power-cycle (soft reset) to get running again.
 
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