[Roller]

Quote:

Ok guys, sometime this month I'm going to grab a pair of $150 Ultrasone Pro 550s. I don't see myself ever spending over $200 on a pair of headphones so if I don't hear any difference with the Ultrasones, that's it. I'm getting rid of my Fiio E7 and my Titanium HD.

If that is indeed true, you are one of the luckiest person to have ever visited Head-Fi

 
I for one, notice clear differences between onboard audio chips, soundcards and DACs alike, as well as different headphones.

 

[xnor]

Quote:

I for one, notice clear differences between onboard audio chips, soundcards and DACs alike, as well as different headphones.

And let me guess.. the onboard is always the worst, more expensive sound cards always sound better and external DACs that are equally or even more expensive always sound best? I know, that's rubbish but some people around here do have strong beliefs.

 

[tom2011]

Quote:

Ok guys, sometime this month I'm going to grab a pair of $150 Ultrasone Pro 550s. I don't see myself ever spending over $200 on a pair of headphones so if I don't hear any difference with the Ultrasones, that's it. I'm getting rid of my Fiio E7 and my Titanium HD.

its better you try headphone instead of speakers
 
in the headphones you will hear more clearer sound
and you will hear highs and lows more

 

[Roller]

Quote:

And let me guess.. the onboard is always the worst, more expensive sound cards always sound better and external DACs that are equally or even more expensive always sound best? I know, that's rubbish but some people around here do have strong beliefs.

From the moment a sub $50 soundcard blow all onboard audio chips out of the water, yes, onboard is always the worst. And I'm not sure a card costing less that $50 would be considered that expensive.

 

[RPGWiZaRD]

For me the point of a soundcard is the tweakability. I'm tweaking the reverb to be just the right amount so that it won't make speech sound weird, just a faint little bit reverb to make it sound more realistic like I would be in a room for enhanced soundstage. I'm also using a pseudo surround effect to stereo/headphone setup which works very nicely and helps me pinpoint stuff better in games as well as using a hardware 10-band EQ which works very nicely as well as a few other features every now and then. With help of this tweakability I can get lowcost $50 equipment to perform equally good subjectively as $200 equipment would without it. This is something Realtek onboard chip fails for me, the EQ has quite piss-poor quality, reverb settings lack fine adjustment so you can't get it to be like you want (it's too excessive) and soundstage is notably worse and not to mention the lacking bass response (everything else gets muted when bass drops in LOL). I admit listening only to the differences between the DACs the difference is very small, but then again I'd never run a soundcard with default settings, it's the result you can get to after everything's configured optimally in the software that counts to me, I can't imagine myself without a proper soundcard!
 
+1 for tweakability! 

 

[anetode]

I haven't read this whole thread, but to toss in a couple of cents worth: All well-made audio gear should sound the same. If it doesn't, it's because of a flaw or a deficit, and over-expensive gear adds no magic pixie dust that turns perfect sound into perfecter sound. And forget all that crap about "revealing" sources or headphones, amping may make a difference depending on phones, etc., but these are minor, and again a matter of either doing it right or failing in some way. If you have happened to luck out and find a well-implemented onboard audio solution that sounds just as good as a separate card, then rejoice! You don't have to waste more money! That isn't always the case, as every onboard audio I've heard has had some flaw or obvious limitation, but it's certainly not impossible for a motherboard maker to do a good job at implementing a cheap codec. An ALC889 built to spec should sound quite good.

 

[Roller]

Quote:

...An ALC889 built to spec should sound quite good.

Yes, almost as good as an entry level dedicated soundcard. Just like you said, and quite well, all onboard audio is still flawed, be it from parts, implementation or design without having EMI in mind, but the fact is that it's just not good, certainly not for music lovers, and specially not for audiophiles.

 

[ABXG]

Quote:

I haven't read this whole thread, but to toss in a couple of cents worth: All well-made audio gear should sound the same. If it doesn't, it's because of a flaw or a deficit, and over-expensive gear adds no magic pixie dust that turns perfect sound into perfecter sound. And forget all that crap about "revealing" sources or headphones, amping may make a difference depending on phones, etc., but these are minor, and again a matter of either doing it right or failing in some way. If you have happened to luck out and find a well-implemented onboard audio solution that sounds just as good as a separate card, then rejoice! You don't have to waste more money! That isn't always the case, as every onboard audio I've heard has had some flaw or obvious limitation, but it's certainly not impossible for a motherboard maker to do a good job at implementing a cheap codec. An ALC889 built to spec should sound quite good.

I noticed a marked improvement going from my onboard audio to my $180 Xonar D2X. I noticed another huge improvement going from my D2X to my $150 HRT MSII. If I try and listen through the onboard on my laptop it is almost painful how bad it sounds in comparison to my MSII.
 
You can't even really say that there wouldn't be a difference between "perfect" pieces of audio equipment because different people have different sonic preferences.

 

[RexAeterna]

@cuad

you shouldn't sweat it too much man. if you find no difference then that's cool. lot of these overpriced dacs and soundcards are all about features and input availability. some dacs even use certain topology design and special upsampling to color the sound to give the impression of a ''better sound''. problem i find with on board is it's latency issues. big problem if recording yourself. can run into major clipping and so forth with your gear.also i find the clarity much better on dedicated audio interfaces/sound cards. i say stick to what you think sounds best and sell the rest if you want but i would always keep everything i have as a back-up just in case you know. don't keep spending money to find a difference if you can't in the first place on things like DACs/soundcards. you should worry about what's more important chain of your gear. your headphones and speakers used and then amps that make the biggest differences. i always think your source should be last thing on your mind to worry about but that's just me.

 

[pro555]

I still think power plays a big roll in sound performance. I got noticeable SQ improved by a new power strip and power supply. That is why computers can hardly sound as good as dedicate device.

 

[Mochan]

Quote:

Help me.

 
My onboard = realtek ALC889
Sound cards I've used = SIIG Soundwave 7.1, Xonar DG, Titanium Fatal1ty Pro, Titanium HD and the Essence STX.
I've used the same settings throughout = 44100KHz, 16-bit, all sound "enhancements" turned off. Audio Creation mode + bit-matched playback with the X-Fis and Hi-Fi checked on the STX and DG.
Headphones = RX700s, AD700s.
Music: CDs, Flacs too, but I don't trust them as much as my CDs. No mp3s.
 
I can hear the difference between the AD700s, the RX700s and a bunch of other crappy headphones easily. I can hear that my Titanium HD is louder than my realtek ALC889 at the same volumes, but besides that I hear no difference at all.. with games, music, movies, whatever.. What gives? What can I do to keep testing whether or not this is supposed to be happening or if I have some kind of hearing defect?
 
Could I use RIghtmark Audio Analyzer?

It's not a hearing defect, the difference you get from different DACs using the same settings is very minimal. Most people can't hear it. I can't really. The only reason I get some sound cards is for the built in effects they have like Dolby and CMSS. These are clearly audible settings that make them worth it if you need them for your purpose (I require CMSS Headphone for gaming with headphones, for instance).
 
Other than that, it's all snake oil in my not so humble opinion.
 

 

[Mochan]

Quote:

Help me.

 
My onboard = realtek ALC889
Sound cards I've used = SIIG Soundwave 7.1, Xonar DG, Titanium Fatal1ty Pro, Titanium HD and the Essence STX.
I've used the same settings throughout = 44100KHz, 16-bit, all sound "enhancements" turned off. Audio Creation mode + bit-matched playback with the X-Fis and Hi-Fi checked on the STX and DG.
Headphones = RX700s, AD700s.
Music: CDs, Flacs too, but I don't trust them as much as my CDs. No mp3s.
 
I can hear the difference between the AD700s, the RX700s and a bunch of other crappy headphones easily. I can hear that my Titanium HD is louder than my realtek ALC889 at the same volumes, but besides that I hear no difference at all.. with games, music, movies, whatever.. What gives? What can I do to keep testing whether or not this is supposed to be happening or if I have some kind of hearing defect?
 
Could I use RIghtmark Audio Analyzer?

It's not a hearing defect, the difference you get from different DACs using the same settings is very minimal. Most people can't hear it. I can't. The only reason I get some sound cards is for the built in effects they have like Dolby and CMSS. These are clearly audible settings that make them worth it if you need them for your purpose (I require CMSS Headphone for gaming with headphones, for instance).
 
Other than that, it's all snake oil in my not so humble opinion.
 
What would be the point of using an Audio Analyzer? Do you need some software to tell that it can tell the difference between something your ears can't? Then what? You live the rest of your life convinced that your ears are faulty? Because "knowing" what software can tell you won't fix your ears. And there isn't anything you can mechanically do to fix them. You can just mentally convince yourself that there is a difference. Like hypnotizing yourself that you can tell the difference. But if you ears really can't tell... you shouldn't bother. That's why I don't buy expensive DACs and soundcards. They don't make much of a diff to me. I focus on the things that do -- headphones and amps.
 
Unless you're using junk onboard, you won't be able to tell the diff most likely. Onboard sound has improved leaps and bounds since the 90's soundblaster days. 
 

 

[Mochan]

Quote:

Yes I agree that the ALC889 is very good, but as good as a $200 Essence STX or a $140 Titanium HD? With all the hype that these cards get, not the mention the endless "wowomg" testimonies for cards as crappy as the Xonar DG, I can't believe that I don't hear at least one difference. There's got to be something I'm missing. I wonder whether my ALC889 sounds likes my Titanium HD or if my Titanium HD is actually sounding like my ALC889, meaning that I'm using the card right somehow. I'm pulling it out of my computer and testing it in another one tomorrow. Because really, this is ridiculous.

 
 
Don't fall prey to hype and marketing. Trust your ears. You'll be a lot happier when you accept this paradigm.
 
 

 

[Mochan]

Quote:

But how do you explain it? I can hear the difference between good and bad headphones, or good and better, hooked up to any card. And I can hear the difference between my laptops noisy onboard and my Realtek ALC889, but I can't hear the difference between my ALC889 and my Titanium HD. Not with highs. Not with lows. Not with positional audio. Nothing.
 
I'm paranoid about this. I feel like somehow even though I'm plugging my headphones into the Titanium HD that I'm still getting playback from the Realtek, since both cards sound equally bad to me. I wanted fit my HD into another computer to test, but the Titanium HD doesn't support XP.
 
 
 
By the way, thank you for this tip.

 
I am not familiar with the Titanium HD, but the guy you quoted had an X-Fi chip. X-Fi has an audio processing algorhythm called "CMSS 3D" which has a huge effect on audio positioning. It's much better than the normal OpenAL processing done by default.  I personally think this is the best positioning capability available for gaming at the moment. It far outstrips Dolby Headphone which some here seem to prefer, but which I think is not suitable for 3D gaming at all (great for music and movies though).
 
But for highs, lows, mids, all that, I really don't hear a difference if I am using the same stock settings.  The differences come into play when you activate the DSPs. For instance, my Alienware M11x has bulit in SRS WOW which is a huge improvement over the normal stock sound. If I turn this on I will immediately perceive much better, more dynamic sound and fuller bass and highs compared to a normal out. The X-Fi has Crystallizer which greatly enhances the treble and dynamics/transients of the sound. Very huge, noticeable effect. These are just DSPs really.
 
For normal playback they all pretty much sound the same to me. 
 
 

 

[kalston]

Quote:

I still think power plays a big roll in sound performance. I got noticeable SQ improved by a new power strip and power supply. That is why computers can hardly sound as good as dedicate device.

Well I do have an UPS on my desktop rig and I always had a high quality PSU, but on my laptop the sound was clearly better when running on the battery than when plugged in (which produced some background noise etc). 
 
Anyway, as someone else has said, what makes me keep my soundcard is definitely the tweakability (for example to get bit perfect playback). I also got it for a low price so that helps too, if I had paid 150€ I'd probably want to return it.