[odigg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max Dread /img/forum/go_quote.gif DBT = Double Blind Test???? If so, are you joking or is it really banned? And if the latter, what the hell for?

DBT discussion tends to start heated arguments. Wonderful and informative threads have been totally derailed because a few individuals (DBT supporters and anti-DBT people) just take over the thread and trash it.

The worst part is that I think many members can have a perfectly sensible discussion about DBT, but there are a few individuals who just lose it and spoil the discussion for everybody.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonboy403 /img/forum/go_quote.gif What's the explaination for width/depth and in your head/out of your head experience of soundstage?

I'm not trying to start an argument with you so don't take this as a precursor to derailing this thread. When I look at the various results of placebo studies and the effects human beliefs can have in interpretation of external events and even psychosomatic disease, I think things like hearing sibilance and physical ear pain from headphones can sometimes be explained by expectation or desire for those characteristics. Compared to feeling physical symptoms from mental trauma, soundstage being explained by placebo is a minor thing.

 

[Max Dread]

I agree mate (about the ban amongst other things). First of all, I've raised the thread and started it, so surely the only thing detrimental to the thread and that should be censored should be something that will detract from the question *I* asked. Aside from that, it's plainly absurb anyway! I guess it shows where this forum's loyalties lie.

(NOTE: this was written in response to the post before the previous one).

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonboy403 /img/forum/go_quote.gif What's the explaination for width/depth and in your head/out of your head experience of soundstage?

I think soundstage is a function of the recording and the transducers as well. When you have on your phones, the drivers are millimeters from your eardrums. It is ALL inside your head. Period. The sensation that it is bigger than that is created by subtle variations in volume and eq that make instruments seem closer or farther away. Those subtleties make it into your head through your systems' ability to handle dynamics and fine details. Mostly transducers again, I'm afraid, though a good, low distortion, low noise, broad bandwidth amp with plenty of headroom will certainly help.

PP

GrumpyOldArts.com

 

[moonboy403]

Quote:

Originally Posted by odigg /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm not trying to start an argument with you so don't take this as a precursor to derailing this thread. When I look at the various results of placebo studies and the effects human beliefs can have in interpretation of external events and even psychosomatic disease, I think things like hearing sibilance and physical ear pain from headphones can sometimes be explained by expectation or desire for those characteristics. Compared to feeling physical symptoms from mental trauma, soundstage being explained by placebo is a minor thing.

You certainly brought up a good point: expectation. In many cases, some claim that the reason one tends to think one amp is better than another is because of the issue of level matching and the justification of one amp being more expensive.

However, I would like to counter that. In my experience, I found the amp that costs 3 times less superior even while it's being played at a lower volume. Admittedly, I had the preconception that the heavier, prettier, and more expensive amp would outperform the less one.

How does placebo come in to play in this case?

 

[moonboy403]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phelonious Ponk /img/forum/go_quote.gif ...though a good, low distortion, low noise, broad bandwidth amp with plenty of headroom will certainly help.

Now, that's the thing that we seem to agree on. One of the difference between amps is due to their difference in capability in providing "enough" power to the transducer.

 

[Tonehenge]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max Dread /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi all That's right! When I first bought my K701s, the chap was also selling a Creek OBH-21SE amp. So I bought that as well, but I found I couldnt hear any difference between the Creek and the Headphone socket on my EMU 1820M. So I saved and searched and recently bought a Heed Canamp! I've been burning it in (I'm somehwere between 100 - 200 hours). But so far the same goes as with the Creek........I cannot hear any difference between the EMU and HEED. So I'm both gutted and surprised, because from what I read there should be a real night and day difference. From where I sit, there seems there could be a few possible answers: 1. The Heed needs to be burnt in for longer (although - obviously - some people think that burning in will make no difference. Plus, it already has some burn in). 2. Interconnect. I'm using a pretty cheap one at the moment, more or less like the cheapie ones you get for free when you buy a hifi. Could this have such a dramatic effect as to make the Heed sound the same as the Emu? 3. I'm deaf or mad and for whatever reason it's just me that cannot hear the difference. 4. It's hype that the Heed makes a huge difference with the K701s. So any thoughts on this would be great. I'll give it more burn in and buy a decentist interconnect, but in the meantime and thoughts would be great. Cheers Max

I think what has escaped you is the fact that the EMU 1820m is a very serious little piece of audio gear, with performance that is way out of proportion to the asking price. Take a deep breath, put your money back in your pocket, and enjoy the tunes....

 

[WittyzTH]

don't know about 1820m, but I owned 1616M, and think its DAC is really good and up to par with Corda Opera's DAC.



However, the phone out is nowhere near the Corda.

If the 1820M is the same as 1616M, be sure, it is great enough.

 

[Max Dread]

The 1820M and 1616M are more or less the same. They have slightly different IO, the 1616M has meters on the front (I think), and there's a couple of other small minor differences. But essentially they are very similar. The reason the 1820M was discontinued was because of the use of lead in it, which was banned in electrical goods a year or two ago.

 

[odigg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonboy403 /img/forum/go_quote.gif However, I would like to counter that. In my experience, I found the amp that costs 3 times less superior even while it's being played at a lower volume. Admittedly, I had the preconception that the heavier, prettier, and more expensive amp would outperform the less one. How does placebo come in to play in this case?

I have absolutely no idea since I wasn't there and I haven't tested (with my ears and testing equipment) the equipment you used. I don't know you either. The more expensive amp may have had a non-flat frequency response (or some other undesirable characteristics) and so you could hear the difference.

I was once told that some specialty speaker amp makers/modifiers might be fiddling with the frequency response for euphonic reasons. I didn't really believe it at the time but then an equipment designer as good as told me they had done it for one of their high end products. You can imagine this was quite a shock for me.

There are also a number of shoddy products from boutique manufacturers and the "truth" about them has comes out on this board from time to time.

I'll offer another explanation of how placebo can show the results you had. Please keep in mind I'm not saying this is you as I don't know you. It's just an example.

I knew a person who grew up very poor (financially) and had a serious problem with people who had money and a serious problem with expensive stuff. He'd always be inclined to say expensive stuff is fluff and crap, even if you were talking about a Corolla vs a BMW. He even considered eating out at any place above Taco Bell to be waste of money. He was this way even though he had a master's degree in a field that was very financially rewarding. So he would be inclined to say the expensive amp is rubbish.

Talking about placebo and the causes is interesting, but ultimately it's a bit like talking to people on this forum to figure out which headphones you like. At the end of the day you have to actually bring some headphones and try them, and in the same way if you want to figure out if placebo is affecting you you need to try to do some controlled testing.

It's very difficult to explain every instance of placebo. The human mind is a complex thing.

And, let's not forget there is always the possibility that you have excellent hearing and can pick out the differences between amps when others, like me, cannot. I'm not making this statement sarcastically. There is at least one blind man who can use his voice like sonar. Human hearing is capable of incredible things.

 

[odigg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tonehenge /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think what has escaped you is the fact that the EMU 1820m is a very serious little piece of audio gear, with performance that is way out of proportion to the asking price.

What's escaped people on Head-Fi is that people here pay premium prices for products made with $50 worth of parts because they are made by small business owners and put in pretty boxes. You can get a ton of incredible feature rich gear in the Pro-Audio market for $400, which is what entry level equipment costs in audiophile headphone land. Of course, when people review the Pro-Audio stuff is just happens to never sound as good as the audiophile stuff, some of which is nothing more than a decently built Cmoy on steroids.

 

[oqvist]

I don´t think it escapes people. Most people here are just after great audio not hanging their amps up on a wall for everyone to see what great parts in it

. They know they get totally screwed no matter what piece of audio gear they get.

What do I care if it uses expensive parts if it sounds crap? I rather take an amp that sounds good no matter what parts in it. I had mine for two years and it never missed a beat and show no signs of aging. Not that much that can break on it. And yes it does have it´s own personality. Quite significant differences between that and the Slee Solo, my Pimeta, EF-1 and such. If you don´t hear a difference you need more demanding headphones I suspect. Otherwise you are not an audiophile and should indead sell it and just listen to music.

If Heed managed to build an amp that sounds this good and is relatively cheap everyone would do it. Instead of trying to sell amps on worthless features instead of sound quality

 

[olblueyez]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max Dread /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi all That's right! When I first bought my K701s, the chap was also selling a Creek OBH-21SE amp. So I bought that as well, but I found I couldnt hear any difference between the Creek and the Headphone socket on my EMU 1820M. So I saved and searched and recently bought a Heed Canamp! I've been burning it in (I'm somehwere between 100 - 200 hours). But so far the same goes as with the Creek........I cannot hear any difference between the EMU and HEED. So I'm both gutted and surprised, because from what I read there should be a real night and day difference. From where I sit, there seems there could be a few possible answers: 1. The Heed needs to be burnt in for longer (although - obviously - some people think that burning in will make no difference. Plus, it already has some burn in). 2. Interconnect. I'm using a pretty cheap one at the moment, more or less like the cheapie ones you get for free when you buy a hifi. Could this have such a dramatic effect as to make the Heed sound the same as the Emu? 3. I'm deaf or mad and for whatever reason it's just me that cannot hear the difference. 4. It's hype that the Heed makes a huge difference with the K701s. So any thoughts on this would be great. I'll give it more burn in and buy a decentist interconnect, but in the meantime and thoughts would be great. Cheers Max

Try a better cable. I dont want to get into the cable thing with everyone but that can improve things a lot. Greater detail, more impact, more dynamic.

BTW: Where are you located max?

 

[SemiAudiophile]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oqvist /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don´t think it escapes people. Most people here are just after great audio not hanging their amps up on a wall for everyone to see what great parts in it . They know they get totally screwed no matter what piece of audio gear they get. What do I care if it uses expensive parts if it sounds crap? I rather take an amp that sounds good no matter what parts in it. I had mine for two years and it never missed a beat and show no signs of aging. Not that much that can break on it. And yes it does have it´s own personality. Quite significant differences between that and the Slee Solo, my Pimeta, EF-1 and such. If you don´t hear a difference you need more demanding headphones I suspect. Otherwise you are not an audiophile and should indead sell it and just listen to music. If Heed managed to build an amp that sounds this good and is relatively cheap everyone would do it. Instead of trying to sell amps on worthless features instead of sound quality

x2 agreed. i could care less about what kind of quality parts is used to build the amp or how great the design/topology of the amp is. all i care about is the sound/synergy with the headphone. as long as it sounds good and well built as in strong/solid/durable, that's all that matters to me.

Yes - the heed definitely has a personality of its own.

 

[Jomox]

Quote:

The 1820M and 1616M are more or less the same. They have slightly different IO, the 1616M has meters on the front (I think), and there's a couple of other small minor differences. But essentially they are very similar. The reason the 1820M was discontinued was because of the use of lead in it, which was banned in electrical goods a year or two ago.

 
They have different circuitry and much much better pre amps on the 1616m (1820m pre amp are so so) other then that the differences are as you say. 4 less in/out son the 1616m also.
 
1820m headphone amp also does an OK job. Some have compared the sound qualty of the M series to higher end Lynx and sound wise there's not much difference.