CanJam SoCal 2018 (April 7-8, 2018) Impressions thread
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Apr 13, 2018 at 12:31 PM Post #136 of 181
Jude and I were talking a little about this, but discussing the soundstage of a headphone is an interesting topic. What makes headphones have a 'large' soundstage versus a closed one? What defines 'larger' than life soundstage?

I tried the HD820 on the HDV-820 and I was pretty impressed with its sound. It reminded me of the HD800S, which still has, what I would consider, a wider than realistic soundstage presentation. I was talking with my SR007 MKI friend and he and I both agreed that for a closed-back headphone, the HD820 didn't seem to isolate a whole lot.

If you're going to be buying a closed-back headphone for twice the price of an open-back, and it doesn't isolate a whole lot, what's the point?
 
Apr 13, 2018 at 6:53 PM Post #138 of 181
Odin412, Is the Mobius competitive with something like the Aeon Open in overall quality/refinement etc even though it is much cheaper? Assuming one likes the tonality of the cans.

Keep in mind, it doesn't sound like he listened to the Mobius with spatialization and head tracking turned off, from his write up.

Also, it wasn't mentioned what dac /amp the Aeon was plugged into. Perhaps, something that scaled it up and refined it that is hard to get in anything other than a desktop or really high end portable setup.

Jury is still out on just how good the Mobius is until production model gets out and a lot more people get their hands on one for more thorough testing, impressions and reviews.
 
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Apr 13, 2018 at 8:37 PM Post #139 of 181
If you're going to be buying a closed-back headphone for twice the price of an open-back, and it doesn't isolate a whole lot, what's the point?
Morr Bass!! :L3000:
 
Apr 13, 2018 at 8:48 PM Post #140 of 181
Also, it wasn't mentioned what dac /amp the Aeon was plugged into. Perhaps, something that scaled it up and refined it that is hard to get in anything other than a desktop or really high end portable setup.

I believe the Mobius is always in active mode, utilizing an internal DAC and amplifier with DSP for sound reproduction. Not sure how much scalability is achievable with this setup.

Would love to hear some more impressions all the same!
 
Apr 13, 2018 at 8:56 PM Post #141 of 181
I believe the Mobius is always in active mode, utilizing an internal DAC and amplifier with DSP for sound reproduction. Not sure how much scalability is achievable with this setup.

Would love to hear some more impressions all the same!

That's true. What I meant was that if he was listening with spatialization on, and then the Aeon's also had a high end dac /amp setup, you may be seeing a "class difference" that isn't really there in real world circumstances.

We'll know more later....
 
Apr 13, 2018 at 9:13 PM Post #142 of 181
Keep in mind, it doesn't sound like he listened to the Mobius with spatialization and head tracking turned off, from his write up.

Also, it wasn't mentioned what dac /amp the Aeon was plugged into. Perhaps, something that scaled it up and refined it that is hard to get in anything other than a desktop or really high end portable setup.

Jury is still out on just how good the Mobius is until production model gets out and a lot more people get their hands on one for more thorough testing, impressions and reviews.

Quite right, I had the head tracking on the whole time. I had too much fun turning my head and playing with the head tracking to think about switching it off! I believe the Aeon Flow Open was connected to a Questyle amp/DAC, but I can't recall which model.

By the way, Audeze extended the Indigogo pre-sale of the Mobius. I couldn't resist signing up for one so we'll see how good it really is in July when the production version ships.
 
Apr 15, 2018 at 7:45 PM Post #143 of 181
I know you meant 20 kHz, not MHz, but how do you suppose one can hear supersonic frequencies when most people fail to hear frequencies past 18 kHz by their 30s via audiograms?

Quote from one interview with Tim De Paravicini:

"Q : If analog tape sounds so much better than digital, what improvements should be made in A/D, D/A converters?


A: First of all, the frequency response should extend from 3 Hz to 50 kHz, because we experience those frequency limits. We are able to detect audio up to 50 kHz. We don't hear it, but we experience it in other ways. I can give you tinnitus very quickly if I run an ultrasonic cleaner at 45 kHz. You are aware that it's on, and your ears ring when it's shut off. On the low end, we detect mechanical vibrations down to 3 Hz. When a marching band walks past you, you feel the drums in your stomach and bones. And that's all part of the sound."

 
Apr 15, 2018 at 10:08 PM Post #144 of 181
Quote from one interview with Tim De Paravicini:

"Q : If analog tape sounds so much better than digital, what improvements should be made in A/D, D/A converters?


A: First of all, the frequency response should extend from 3 Hz to 50 kHz, because we experience those frequency limits. We are able to detect audio up to 50 kHz. We don't hear it, but we experience it in other ways. I can give you tinnitus very quickly if I run an ultrasonic cleaner at 45 kHz. You are aware that it's on, and your ears ring when it's shut off. On the low end, we detect mechanical vibrations down to 3 Hz. When a marching band walks past you, you feel the drums in your stomach and bones. And that's all part of the sound."

Perhaps. I'm not too convinced those all can be detected from a headphone system though. Sub 20 Hz signals are felt through the body (i.e. chest or bone conduction), which a headphone on your ears can't really reproduce, but speakers most certainly can. I've read a paper that the resonant frequency of the fluid of your eyes can be resonated at high frequencies and can thus be detected, but again headphones don't affect your eyes, speakers can. Ultasonic cleaners have other parts that make lower frequency sounds that we can hear, but that doesn't mean we can hear ultrasonic frequencies.
 
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Apr 15, 2018 at 10:47 PM Post #145 of 181
Perhaps. I'm not too convinced those all can be detected from a headphone system though. Sub 20 Hz signals are felt through the body (i.e. chest or bone conduction), which a headphone on your ears can't really reproduce, but speakers most certainly can. I've read a paper that the resonant frequency of the fluid of your eyes can be resonated at high frequencies and can thus be detected, but again headphones don't affect your eyes, speakers can. Ultasonic cleaners have other parts that make lower frequency sounds that we can hear, but that doesn't mean we can hear ultrasonic frequencies.

Then you haven’t heard the Abyss, it’ll flap your ears!
 
Apr 15, 2018 at 10:48 PM Post #146 of 181
At least for me headphones are for listening to music and not to earthquakes or bats. So what Tim De Paravicini mentioned in that interview does not make sense to me. Still timing may be important for hearing related to music and it may extend the standard spectrum but I am still looking for any real literature which really confirms that scientifically.
 
Apr 15, 2018 at 10:51 PM Post #147 of 181
At least for me headphones are for listening to music and not to earthquakes or bats. So what Tim De Paravicini mentioned in that interview does not make sense to me. Still timing may be important for hearing related to music and it may extend the standard spectrum but I am still looking for any real literature which really confirms that scientifically.

Don’t be so quick in dismissing the thoughts of a man who’s forgotten more about audio playback than this collective Thread knows.
 
Apr 15, 2018 at 10:55 PM Post #148 of 181
CanJam Socal 2018 Impressions
Bharat Patel, Kishore Patel


Preface


My name is Bharat Patel (age 61), and I am an engineer with over four decades of experience. What intrigues me in audio is the technical innovations behind them, such as material design, unique software technologies (eg DSP, head tracking function etc). It’s an incredibly exciting time to get into this hobby, and I hope this write-up can help others on their audio journey.

CanJam SoCal 2018

The funny thing is, I had no interest going to Can Jam SoCal, as I have no qualms with the system I have. However, my son (studying in Sweden) bought me a two day pass as a birthday gift, and booked me appointments with the HE1 and Smyth Realiser A16. Little did I know I’d be meeting amazing people, and have the opportunity to interview some incredible folks and learn a lot along the way.

<< snip snip >>

In my mind, this ranks as one of the best written, most readable & informative write-ups of an event ever posted.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

And thanks to your son for being so thoughtful and crafty to send you there, as the eyes and ears of the Far-Aways.
 
Apr 15, 2018 at 11:05 PM Post #149 of 181
Perhaps. I'm not too convinced those all can be detected from a headphone system though. Sub 20 Hz signals are felt through the body (i.e. chest or bone conduction), which a headphone on your ears can't really reproduce, but speakers most certainly can. I've read a paper that the resonant frequency of the fluid of your eyes can be resonated at high frequencies and can thus be detected, but again headphones don't affect your eyes, speakers can. Ultasonic cleaners have other parts that make lower frequency sounds that we can hear, but that doesn't mean we can hear ultrasonic frequencies.

At least for me headphones are for listening to music and not to earthquakes or bats. So what Tim De Paravicini mentioned in that interview does not make sense to me. Still timing may be important for hearing related to music and it may extend the standard spectrum but I am still looking for any real literature which really confirms that scientifically.

Headphones, as well as the speakers, are both transducers, both can be described as some sort of engine, if you like. Both have membrane, sound signature and technical characteristics of both can be tweaked and tuned.
Admittedly, Tim was talking about digital vs. analogue in conjuction/relatin to human hearing, and how much/little is known and published about it.

Tim de Paravicini knew very well what he was talking about and why he was saying that, I could believe that there was more to what he was saying in the interviews than it perhaps meets the eye, so to speak.

I, for one, do not subscribe to the notion that one transducer (headphone in this case) is deemed to be not capable of reproducing some of those sensations, or all of it, given that the source is of the certain character(istics) and quality, and given that all links in the audio chain (together with the transducer at the end of the chain) have the right technical characteristics.
I would bet that that it (transducer of sorts, happens to be the headphone) might actually be capable of it.
To me, it actually does not make sense that one membrane housed in the box or some sort of body, or suspended physically (speaker) can reproduce one thing, and at the same time - the headphone (membrane on contraption close to your ears) - cannot - and I am not discussing the resonance of the eye fluids (neither did De Paravicini, but bones and similar).
Why do you think he mentioned the ultrasonic cleaner and tinnitus, and how come that he mentioned just that (other end of the freq. spectrum) ? You mean that there are some other parts in the cleaner that have no relation to the sound propagation causing the effect he mentions ? What other parts ?

Since I have had brief contact with Tim recently on facebook (one facebook-, audio dedicated group) - we could perhaps ask the man himself, or first read the interviews with him prior to almost dismissing what he is (or anyone else, for that matter) saying on the subject ?
 
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Apr 15, 2018 at 11:17 PM Post #150 of 181
Headphones, as well as the speakers, are both transducers, both can be described as some sort of engine, if you like.

Tim de Paravicini knew very well what he was talking about and why he was saying that.

I, for one, do not subscribe to the notion that the transducer (headphone in this case) is deemed to be uncapable of reproducing some of those sensations (that you are saying that it is not), given that the source if of the certain character(istics) and quality, and given that all links in the audio chain (togehter with the transducer at the end of the chain) have the right technical characteristics.
I would bet that that it (transducer) might actually be capable of it.

Since I have had brief contact with Tim recently on facebook (one facebook-, audio dedicated group) - we could perhaps ask the man himself, or first read the interviews with him prior to almost dismissing what he is (or anyone else, for that matter) saying on the subject ?
I understand what he was saying (and I have read some very insightful ideas from Tim over the years) close to the field of my education but I question the relevance to music. Also making any transducer is a compromise but aiming for in my opinion musically unimportant frequency spectrum causes problems which are more disturbing musical spectrum (e.g. doppler distortion). As I said I am not so clear at the upper spectrum and time resolution issues.
 
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