Can you tell the difference between different cables?
Aug 30, 2007 at 3:55 PM Post #151 of 191
Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Search head-fi. Plenty of cable reviews. Also plenty o"f "professional" cable reviews, wich you sceptics don't trust in the first place.


I'd like to know specifically which reports you are relying on when you make statements like the ones that you've made in this thread.
 
Aug 30, 2007 at 3:58 PM Post #152 of 191
Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGnome /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Yes, and this would be something very easily measured. But of course they never will, because once they see the results they will need to find new absurd theories.




Yeah, talking with him is pretty futile. Every time you make a point he just ignores it. Guess ignorance is bliss eh.



Strange, i was thinking the same of you guys. Have you read the post i did some months ago about differences in measurements in cables?! I bet you didn't. Because it will cut through your nonsense like butter.

Do a search on headfi and you'll find the thread. There's also figures in there.
 
Aug 30, 2007 at 4:00 PM Post #153 of 191
Quote:

Originally Posted by Febs /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I'd like to know specifically which reports you are relying on when you make statements like the ones that you've made in this thread.


Same here, show me yours. You think you can trick me into doing all the hard work.

Search headfi for cable reviews and find the threads and posts i did about measurements in cables. There were SIGNIFICANT differences in the measurements in the cables!

here's one i posted in another cable thread some months ago:

Quote:

I quote:

Speaker cables and interconnects represent one of the most controversial subjects in audio/video. Do they make a difference in the quality of the signal being passed from one component to another? Are they worth the price? You will find audiophiles of all degrees of experience and expertise answering these two questions with yes's and no's. Why the controversy? At least part of the answer lies in what we have been told, rather than what we have heard for ourselves. Secondly, it is difficult to define precisely what to listen for when comparing cables, and third, any particular cable may sound quite different with one set of equipment than with another.

During the last year, we began researching some of these questions for ourselves, believing at the outset that cables probably did not make any truly noticeable improvement in sound quality. We were wrong in our assumption, and how!

Cables do make a difference, and in order to see why, it is first necessary to understand the characteristics that affect their ability to transmit a signal.

The "personality" of a cable is determined by three basic electrical properties: resistance, capacitance, and inductance. Resistance is probably the smallest factor, because cables use good conductors (copper and silver). The real culprits in cable transmission are capacitance, measured in picofarads or pF (trillionths of a farad) per foot, and inductance, measured in microhenrys (millionths of a henry) per foot.

Any time conductors are surrounded by an insulator (dielectric), capacitance occurs. You want this to happen with capacitors inside the amplifier, but not in the cables. Depending on the insulator, some of the electrical signal passing through the cable is transferred to the insulator, stored as energy (electrons), then released back into the cable where it causes a degradation in the sound quality. The type of insulator has a direct effect on the capacitance. Various insulators are used in high fidelity cables, and, in increasing quality, they are PVC, followed by polyethylene, polypropylene, and finally, Teflon, which is the best. Usually, Teflon insulated cables are the most expensive, partially because it is a difficult material to work with. Typical values of capacitance with high quality audio cables vary from 6pF to 50pF per foot. Inductance is the property of the signal in one conductor inducing current in another nearby conductor, and inhibiting current flow in the opposite direction. This is desirable in transformers, but not in cables. Since cables usually have two leads, each conducting in the opposite direction to complete the circuit, high inductance can cause the flow of current in one lead to interfere with the flow in the other lead. Inductance values for audio cables vary from about 0.1 microhenrys to 0.6 microhenrys per foot.

Some amplifiers are more sensitive than others to the load that the speaker cable places upon them. The higher the output impedance, the more likely capacitance and inductance of the cable will affect the sound quality. Tube amplifiers are probably most sensitive, since they tend to have higher output impedances (e.g., 1 Ohm) than solid state amplifiers (e.g., 0.01 Ohm). In any case, however, capacitance and inductance values are important in determining how the cables will perform in any sound system.


Cables...
inductance: 0,1 to 0,6PF = 600%
capacitance from 6 to 50MH. = 833%


so, 600 and 833% difference between the best measuring cables and the worst measuring cables is quite significant!

Oh, yeah, i heard this one before: these differences aren't audible......so, please come up with something more original.
 
Aug 30, 2007 at 4:16 PM Post #154 of 191
Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif
best connection is none at all. they use the cable bridges to bridge the gap between the high and low jacks on a speaker wich is capable of bi-wiring. If you don't use bi-wiring, they are supplied with cheap bridge strips. MOST people (alot, not a few) replace those with a cable bridge. As far as i heard, Without an exception the people had better sound removing those strips and replacing them with good cables.
cool.gif




Umm, that was not the bridge to which the OP or I were referring. It was the connection between the preamp outputs and power/main amp inputs on integrated amps.
 
Aug 30, 2007 at 4:50 PM Post #155 of 191
Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Same here, show me yours. You think you can trick me into doing all the hard work.


I didn't realize that posting a link would be so taxing for you.

Quote:

here's one i posted in another cable thread some months ago:


Once again, no link. Come on. If you can figure out how to cut and paste the text, surely you can figure out how to cut and paste the link as well.
 
Aug 30, 2007 at 4:55 PM Post #156 of 191
Quote:

Originally Posted by hciman77 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Now the Just Noticeable Difference in intensity between two sounds varies with initial loudness.


Test tones have their place. But you need to translate the results into a scale for real world listening too. With music of a normal sort, one would be lucky to hear the difference between 2 or 3 dB. We all listen to music, not continuous test tones.

See ya
Steve
 
Aug 30, 2007 at 5:00 PM Post #157 of 191
Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif
You think you can trick me into doing all the hard work.


Well, then I'm going to take the easy road too! Here is what I know to be a fact... Time and time again that you don't know what you're talking about. You also make up "proofs" and take sales pitch from manufacturers as gospel.

It's up to you to prove me wrong.

See ya
Steve
 
Aug 30, 2007 at 5:02 PM Post #158 of 191
Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Strange, i was thinking the same of you guys. Have you read the post i did some months ago about differences in measurements in cables?! I bet you didn't. Because it will cut through your nonsense like butter.

Do a search on headfi and you'll find the thread. There's also figures in there.



Post a link.
 
Aug 30, 2007 at 5:02 PM Post #159 of 191
Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif
so, 600 and 833% difference between the best measuring cables and the worst measuring cables is quite significant!



Well, I found the last time you quoted that particular article here and--no surprise--you didn't post a link there to the original either.

But I do note that even in what you quoted there and here, you are mischaracterizing the article. What the article says (at least as you have quoted it) is that capacitance among certain cables (doesn't say which ones) varies from 6 pF to 50 pF. It doesn't say that there is a 833% difference "between the best measuring cables and the worst measuring cables."
 
Aug 30, 2007 at 5:05 PM Post #160 of 191
Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGnome /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I never mentioned a veil. and am a disbeliever of boutique cables. So I'm unsure of what your talking about.


I was speaking in general, not specifically to you. A bad job of soldering can certainly cause trouble. I've never found a problem in the cables I get for a few bucks at Radio Shack. Perhaps the cheapie ones from China at the 99 cent store might have problems.

See ya
Steve
 
Aug 30, 2007 at 5:07 PM Post #162 of 191
Quote:

Originally Posted by infinitesymphony /img/forum/go_quote.gif
So what you're saying is that either a cable "just works," or doesn't work at all, and if it works, it should be good enough for everyone. Capacitance, resistance, inductance, signal loss, improper shielding--none of those matter as long as you hear sound.


When it comes to the cables you buy at Radio Shack or just about any stereo or electronics store, yes. I haven't found a bad cable from any of those sources myself. The biggest problem I have found is the ruggedness of connectors if you are going to be plugging and unplugging often. Bad connectors will develop shorts.

See ya
Steve
 
Aug 30, 2007 at 5:12 PM Post #163 of 191
Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif
That's why most people remove those cheap bridges for high quality cable ones.


You're making that up. The only reason to replace those is if you are patching in an equalizer or some other signal processor. A cable would be MUCH more susceptible to shorting and having bad contact than a solid bridge. The people I know who have amps with those bridges are very careful not to lose them when they remove them.

See ya
Steve
 
Aug 30, 2007 at 5:16 PM Post #164 of 191
Aug 30, 2007 at 5:18 PM Post #165 of 191
Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif
so, 600 and 833% difference between the best measuring cables and the worst measuring cables is quite significant!

Oh, yeah, i heard this one before: these differences aren't audible......so, please come up with something more original.



Er, as I have mentioned before the paper difference in DR between 16 bit audio and 24 bit audio is 25600% , does anyone think that 24 bit audio sounds 256 times better.

The point that your segment fails to address is whether any energy loss is consistent over the freq spectrum , if it is consistent then it is utterly irrelevant as you just turn the volume up a tad. Also the measurements shown do not show the actual energy loss over a run of speaker cable , this is the bottom line - how much energy is lost and where is it lost.
 

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