Can you graph sound stage?

[redrol]

Before I begin, Bigshot: I know you don't think in-ears can produce a sound stage as in played by speakers. I understand the difference. I am speaking of the psychoacoustic fakery IEMs can produce that simulate listening to speakers. Not the real thing but an approximation that the brain helps produce. Having said that here is my theory:

1. The outter ear causes a phase cancellation around 10k, a notch if you will
2. Midbass causes psychoacoustic masking of higher frequencies, thus, too much ruins 3D playback because you can't hear the depth queues.

Video:

I'm posting this so folks can try the theory with their own iems or headphones.

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

Before I begin, Bigshot: I know you don't think in-ears can produce a sound stage as in played by speakers. I understand the difference. I am speaking of the psychoacoustic fakery IEMs can produce that simulate listening to speakers. Not the real thing but an approximation that the brain helps produce. Having said that here is my theory:

1. The outter ear causes a phase cancellation around 10k, a notch if you will
2. Midbass causes psychoacoustic masking of higher frequencies, thus, too much ruins 3D playback because you can't hear the depth queues.

Video:

I'm posting this so folks can try the theory with their own iems or headphones.

Why would you ask him? He knows next to nothing about iem’s and headphones. He’s a speaker guy. You’d do much better to ask @castleofargh.

 

[redrol]

I just wanted take care of that argument before it started

 

[megabigeye]

I don't know why I never see it mentioned around here, but rtings has figured out a way to measure both soundstage and imaging for headphones. I don't know if they have graphs specifically for those things, but they do publish the related measurements.

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

I don't know why I never see it mentioned around here, but rtings has figured out a way to measure both soundstage and imaging for headphones. I don't know if they have graphs specifically for those things, but they do publish the related measurements.

The problem is Rtings is garbage. They rated the soundstage of the hd600 as excellent. Anyone who has ever heard the 600/650/6xx would disagree. People buy those for their tonality and timbre, not soundstage.

 

[megabigeye]

The problem is Rtings is garbage. They rated the soundstage of the hd600 as excellent. Anyone who has ever heard the 600/650/6xx would disagree. People buy those for their tonality and timbre, not soundstage.

Oh yeah, I forgot to include my "I don't know anything about it so don't blame me" clause.

 

[castleofargh]

It would help if we all first agree on what soundstage refers to in this case(no speakers, no actual room). I don't think we all do.


Possible answer: it's @megabigeye's fault.

 

[redrol]

I referenced Rtings. They are right actually. It's a real thing.

 

[IDrinkLava]

I referenced Rtings. They are right actually. It's a real thing.

What exactly do you define soundstage as? I had a chance to listen to the Sennheiser HD 800 recently and the furthest stereo width was 10 inches at the most...the same exact as on the AKG K712 Pro, the Focal Elex, the ATH R70X, and yes, even the Sennheiser HD 600. This corresponds to the width of the two drivers while they're on your head.

 

[redrol]

If you close your eyes, can you imagine the band playing out in front of you, maybe in a room. I suppose for some folks it works and for some it doesn't. In terms of in-ears you can get an approximation of sound in a room given the right tuning.. sounds crazy? Not for the folks that hear it I guess.

 

[bigshot]

Sound stage is the placement of sound objects left to right in the mix. The volume level of each sound object, and the placement of each channel between left and right would be what you would use to chart it. That could be easily output from the mixing board. After everything is mixed down to stereo, it would be impossible to separate everything to quantify it.

We may perceive soundstage differently because of our own ears and tastes, but soundstage is separate from our subjective interpretation of it. You can't measure subjective impressions, so if you start out by defining soundstage in terms of subjectivity, then the answer is no, you can't measure subjective perception of soundstage.

 

[castleofargh]

From stereo albums I get positioning cues of course. Incorrect ones as we're turning 60°panning into 180°. I also often get various levels of elevations that aren't supposed to exist. A lot of that will change based on the track, and the IEM/headphone I'm using.
I tend to think of all that as imaging(where I feel that the instruments are in space)instead of soundstage. But if we consider that to be soundstage for being the part of placement that is not in the music, but is instead caused by the IEM, then all the nonsense comes from using them. So of course I'd say that IEM soundstage exists and that it has a big impact depending on the IEM/headphone being used(a big bad impact).
Is that soundstage?


I don't ever feel like the band is in front of me in a room with unprocessed stereo and headphones or IEMs. I can close my eyes and stop moving for as long as you want, it's just not happening. If I make an effort not to move my head at all, I might be able with my eyes closed to place the singer in front of me(not far at all). But how do you even reconcile sounds being full left or right with the idea that the instruments in front of you? I can't explain that rationally and my brain clearly can't make it work just by willing it.

 

[bigshot]

I think that is probably just the way the shape of the IEMs interact with your particular ear shapes. It's probably different for everyone. Speaker soundstage is more universal because it doesn't artificially inject the sound into the ear canal and be subject to the effect of the transducer being right inside the ear. It pushes the sound into a room so we can hear it the way we hear natural sound in the world around us.

 

[IDrinkLava]

If you close your eyes, can you imagine the band playing out in front of you, maybe in a room. I suppose for some folks it works and for some it doesn't. In terms of in-ears you can get an approximation of sound in a room given the right tuning.. sounds crazy? Not for the folks that hear it I guess.

No, even the "widest" soundstaging headphones and IEMs have sounded inside my head with the furthest points being where the drivers sit. It might be possible that your subconscious brain is interpolating the data it's receiving from what it's currently hearing as being on a "stage" in front of you. Without any sort of binaural recording techniques that filter out front, rear, and elevation frequencies to emulate the human ear, 2-channel stereo music will only ever sound like instruments and vocals being placed along a flat 2D line.

 

[redrol]

Yeah I agree with that. That is what is happening, and also, happens to many other folks. I've talked to quite a few.