Can you drive a manual transmission car?

[nysulli]

what i mean by engine braking is simply leaving the car in gear while coming up to a light, or when you need to stop quickly, in a auto, as soon as take your foot off the gas, it goes into neutral, leaving your brakes to do all the work in slowing your car down, rather then having your engine help some, allowing less brake application, and lowering the chances of locking up the brakes, leaving your car to skid down the road out of control

 

[mjg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orpheus so i shall. heh he. let's take it out to the track?.... that'll be fun... no seriously... i think the car probably performs quite well, and like you said is quite a match for ANY sports car. but it's not one. it's a luxury car. just like you can make a rice rocket out of almost anything if you got enough money. i mean, hell, you probably can put $50,000 into a honda civic and be able to beat a stock ferrari on the race track if you're good, but you know... it's still a honda. just like the mercedes is STILL an E class show-off car. but i'm sure you do shifting better than me..... so maybe i'd eat my words. heh he. but i'd sure like to try! oh wait............. you said automatic............ nm. no fair match.... anyway, you live around california man? in fact, any of you live out here? some friends at work rent out willowsprings / buttonwillow 2x a year. pm me if you wanna get in on it. it's fun! any car is welcome... i think some guy took a stock camry!!! out on the track last time.

I live in New York, i'd love to come there sometime, when college is over... I was out in socal 3 years ago... New a few people over there back then.

Heh, i never said i had an e55 i... My car is no match for the C5 (02 Max 6 speed with bolt-ons,(no boost)), if i ran juice, you'd probablly still win if your shifting wasn't terrible (with juice and my setup some guys run low 12's, yet it's still a maxima, and i'm really not a drag racer anyways, i can do some pretty clever shifting though ; ))

I'm pretty interested in corvettes, when i'm working again, it's goinna be my first "sports car" ; ).

 

[Snake]

I'll have to agree with a manual being safer - especially for a new driver. My old boss' wife said that to me like 10 years ago, and I'll agree with both her and here. Makes you pay attention more.

That said, although I wanted a manual I ended up getting a Tiptronic auto on my new car. I wanted a manual even though, at the time of my car shopping, I had my entire right forearm in a cast with no guarantees from my doctors that I would ever use my right wrist correctly again. But I had to get the Tiptronic because the manuals were sold out - and it's saved my rear dozens of times while sitting in horrid, absolutely horrid traffic for hours on end these past few years.

I do use the Tiptronic function a LOT - and I mean, a lot!

If you want to try shifting you should try a tractor-trailer's non-syncro 13 or 18 speed

(I'm licensed for those)

I used to truly (truly) HATE auto's but the Tiptronic is a very nice combo of manual / auto functions, under a lot of conditions.

 

[Stephonovich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nysulli driving in the snow, a manual tranny is so nice to have, engine braking can help a lot in slowing you down if you need to stop quickly and the roads to slick for hitting the brakes as hard as possible.

Aye, forgot this. Engine braking is indeed useful. However, Orpheus has a good point...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orpheus this one i'd have to disagree. engine breaking is much harder to control than using breaks. it kicks in immediately..... that is unless if you are using the clutch as a pseudo brake, which isn't correct. in an auto, you can manually shift too anyway. the main difference is there's no clutch. anyway.... ultimately the one variable which determines how fast you can accelerate or brake is friction. so, using engine breaking would not help you slow faster in snow, cause the main problem is the loss of traction.

If you're not careful, you're forcing a sudden deceleration that will likely shock the powertrain enough to cause wheelspin in adverse traction situations, such as snow. Best to use it in conjunction with braking, and definitely be rev matching. I mainly use it for slowing down around town. And, of course, if you absolutely have to stop right now, you can't beat threshold braking (or ABS, I suppose) combined with skillful downshifting. Also sounds really cool

As to the point of my post, it wasn't really about manuals being superior. I was merely pointing out that some things which may seem difficult or cumbersome eventually become second nature. You're right; an auto is easier. I'm continually amazed at how our Explorer can start up our extremely steep gravel driveway with no wheelspin, even if you stop half way up. That would require a large amount of finesse and clutch modulation in a manual (but, of course, it'd be more fun).

I'm not sure about them promoting safety, though. I still try to fiddle with the radio and other such things. Usually, I'm on the highway, though, so it's stuck in 5th anyway. You really don't have to shift as much as people assume. Realistically, if you could manage to start off, you could get by with just 1st, 3rd, and 5th (or 4th, or um, 3rd, if you have that old of a car). City driving is more of just constantly pushing in the clutch, slowing down, and resuming speed again. And once you're on the highway, of course, you don't have to shift. Unless you want to pass someone, I suppose. But even then, with a decent engine, it's not necessary.

Snake, something I've always wondered: what exactly is a Tiptronic as opposed to manually shifting an auto? Our Intrepid has a slap-shifter mode wherein you can manually tell it to upshift or downshift, however, within reason. It will automatically upshift at redline, and it won't downshift if doing so would bring the engine above redline. Basically, it's just overriding the ECU's normal mode. It really offers no benefits over the usual tree mounted unit, since you can choose to stay in a gear with those as well. I'm assuming a Tiptronic isn't an SMG or the like; but what makes them special?

 

[Snake]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich Snake, something I've always wondered: what exactly is a Tiptronic as opposed to manually shifting an auto? Our Intrepid has a slap-shifter mode wherein you can manually tell it to upshift or downshift, however, within reason. It will automatically upshift at redline, and it won't downshift if doing so would bring the engine above redline. Basically, it's just overriding the ECU's normal mode. It really offers no benefits over the usual tree mounted unit, since you can choose to stay in a gear with those as well. I'm assuming a Tiptronic isn't an SMG or the like; but what makes them special?

Your Chrysler's AutoStick and VW Group's Tiptronic are pretty much the same thing.

The difference between a Tiptronic / AutoStick tranny and a regular automatic is the fact that a Tiptronic / AS are designed to be manually shifted, while believe it or not a regular auto is not designed so. The Tiptronics / AutoStick et al have hydraulic systems that have electronic interfaces installed to control flow. The computers actuate the hydraulics that control the bands and clutches. Therefore manually shifting tells the computers to alter shift control.

In an regular automatic transmission band and clutch hydraulics are controlled by fluid pressure through control valves in the tranny's valve housing.

The different is that when you shift a regular auto tranny manually you are moving a mechanical shift rod to override the hydraulics. This is a big problem because the tranny was not built for this rapid, manual method of control.

When you shift a Tiptronics the computer syncs engine and gear speeds beforehand due to electronics engine and transmission interfaces. You do not cause damage to a Tiptronic by manually shifting it because the computers take proper gear shifting techniques into account to not damage nor jolt the gearsets during the shift.

A Tiptronic is still, internally, based on planetary gearsets but the control system is optimized to work these to the best of their abilities. Manually shifting a regular auto tranny all the time damages it, but not on a Tip.

 

[Alexhifi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nysulli what i mean by engine braking is simply leaving the car in gear while coming up to a light, or when you need to stop quickly, in a auto, as soon as take your foot off the gas, it goes into neutral, leaving your brakes to do all the work in slowing your car down, rather then having your engine help some, allowing less brake application, and lowering the chances of locking up the brakes, leaving your car to skid down the road out of control

This is not the case. An auto downshifts just as you would in a manual car and does not go into neutral when you press the brake. In fact, an auto never goes into neutral unless you put the shifter in park or neutral. The only thing that happens when you press the brakes is it will unlock the converter and the computer starts to guage when to downshift. You can test it yourself...press the brakes while cruising, do your RPMs drop to idle?

I don't use engine braking at all when I come to a stop, I simply time it. What I mean is, I throw the car in neutral and cost up to the light/stop...I'd much rather wear out my brakes then use my engine to slow me down (though I do it sometimes if I'm coming in too hot or just want to exercise the motor some). What irritates me is people who literally race up to a stop and brake hard - always people with automatics. Lots of gas consumption and brake pad/rotor wear. Silly.

As for *safety*, in a panic situation, I bet the automatic driver will do better. And as for racing (RR/autox) and such - it is, of course, not really appropriate to race with an automatic, but with todays 5, 6, and even 7 speed automatics with manushift/paddle shifters...well...

-Alex

 

[nysulli]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexhifi This is not the case. An auto downshifts just as you would in a manual car and does not go into neutral when you press the brake. In fact, an auto never goes into neutral unless you put the shifter in park or neutral. The only thing that happens when you press the brakes is it will unlock the converter and the computer starts to guage when to downshift. You can test it yourself...press the brakes while cruising, do your RPMs drop to idle? I don't use engine braking at all when I come to a stop, I simply time it. What I mean is, I throw the car in neutral and cost up to the light/stop...I'd much rather wear out my brakes then use my engine to slow me down (though I do it sometimes if I'm coming in too hot or just want to exercise the motor some). What irritates me is people who literally race up to a stop and brake hard - always people with automatics. Lots of gas consumption and brake pad/rotor wear. Silly. As for *safety*, in a panic situation, I bet the automatic driver will do better. And as for racing (RR/autox) and such - it is, of course, not really appropriate to race with an automatic, but with todays 5, 6, and even 7 speed automatics with manushift/paddle shifters...well... -Alex

well, like yourself in typical situations of just coming up to a red light, i do the same, just kick it in neutral, and coast in, as i actually want to replace my rotors and pads sooner (mmm larger, sloted rotors and axxis pads)

as for auto's going into neutral, all of them that i've driven do as best as i can remember, but its been some time since i've driven an auto on a regular basis (like 8 years now) those include a 97 escort wagon (parents car) and a 97 olds cutless, both of which from the sound of the engine, and the tach, drop into neutral as best as i can tell.

as for in a panic situation, i agree, given the same situation the average driver would do better in an auto, as the average driver really doesn't know the limits of their car, a more skilled driver, say one that auto-x's and pushes their car probably has a better chance in a manual just because they'd be able to cope with the added complexity of dealing with the extra pedal and choice of gears

 

[Orpheus]

you know, i've heard about this "tiptronic" term in conjunction with porsches many years ago. is this a generic term or trademarked?--sounds like you mentioned volkswagon owns this name?

anyway, i thought at the time this was the same as a "sequential manual" (did i say that right?) that they use in high end cars like ferraris and the new bmw m5... and f1 cars. it's my understanding that these transmissions are like manuals but with the computer clutching for you?

now, you say that tiptronic is meant to be shifted manually..... does that mean all these new cars with these shift levers that move to the side allowing +/- shifting when you push the lever up and down... are all these cars "tiptronic" and "meant to be shifted manually?" or can some of these cars be normal automatic transmissions, but masked to be manually shifted?

so confused.....

 

[NightWoundsTime]

I drive big trucks, where shifting is a totally different game.

Edit: Actually the really cool thing about those dump trucks is that I rarely have to use the clutch. Only to start out usually. It's a very complicated system with the big heavy transmissions but the only way to really gain speed is to go one gear to another with no clutch in the way.

 

[Snake]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orpheus you know, i've heard about this "tiptronic" term in conjunction with porsches many years ago. is this a generic term or trademarked?--sounds like you mentioned volkswagon owns this name? anyway, i thought at the time this was the same as a "sequential manual" (did i say that right?) that they use in high end cars like ferraris and the new bmw m5... and f1 cars. it's my understanding that these transmissions are like manuals but with the computer clutching for you? now, you say that tiptronic is meant to be shifted manually..... does that mean all these new cars with these shift levers that move to the side allowing +/- shifting when you push the lever up and down... are all these cars "tiptronic" and "meant to be shifted manually?" or can some of these cars be normal automatic transmissions, but masked to be manually shifted? so confused.....

"Tiptronic" is a patented, copywrited device & name created by Porsche. That's why other manufacturers almost never use the Tiptronic name, unless they have licensed both the tech and the name from Porsche AG. But, no matter the name, many of the principles are the same.

Really, any "normal" auto can be made into a Tip-style tranny. It is a matter of control technologies and some reworking of the interior components, nothing that any good manufacturer can't do.

The new sequential autos like the VW DSG and the Ferrari are computer controlled split (in the case of the DSG) manual-style syncromesh gearboxes, not planetary-based gearboxes like a "true" automatic is.

Confused yet??

Go by the internal construction - planetary or "standard" gears, manual or computer controlled. A planetary geared box is a "true" automatic, computer or standard hydrualic controls. The newer hi-po stuff coming out is standard syncromesh cut gears with computer enhancements.

Now guys, FWIW "coasting" to a traffic light in neutral is illegal in the largest majority of states (yes, it's true, see your Driver's Manual). Since I am trained to drive Big Rig I use compression braking a lot, but not downshifting. I simply ease off the throttle to slow down, in gear, as required. No, it does not "wear down" the engine contrary to popular opinion. How do I know? My cars all had 200,000 miles on them with no failures due to this, and a Big Rig goes about 400,000 miles or so, sometimes much more, before they require a rebuild and that includes compression braking with downshifting. You must downshift a tractor-trailer coming to a stop because a big rig does not have enough braking power to stop itself.

BTW, if that doesn't teach you to leave a big-rig a LOT of room here's a fact - it takes 1 football field to stop a loaded tractor-trailer from 60 MPH. That includes most of the seating area, as well!

So we are trained to use compression braking, for we must. I still use that technique in my car and currently I have 123,000 miles on my 2002 Jetta 1.8T Tiptronic - no tranny issues and believe it or not I'm still on the original, OEM brake pads. Yes, bought the car new...and I'm still on the original pads. I'll have to replace them soon, maybe in the next 10,000 miles or so

I don't manually downshift but the tranny does downshift automatically, including automatically dropping / holding a lower gear, during downhill descents (which is pretty helpful when it does it). (Only reason I have "only" 123,000 miles on the car is that during the last 2 years I've done 13,000 on my motorcycle (not enough, if you ask me) and I was immobile this year for 27 days, off my usual 1,000 miles a week)

 

[Snake]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NightWoundsTime I drive big trucks, where shifting is a totally different game. Edit: Actually the really cool thing about those dump trucks is that I rarely have to use the clutch. Only to start out usually. It's a very complicated system with the big heavy transmissions but the only way to really gain speed is to go one gear to another with no clutch in the way.

Yeah, but if you don't double-clutch between shifts most large companies will boot you out once they find out - they consider it "abusing the machinery". The last time I went for a driver's interview they took me on a road test with a company driver and when he walked back into the office his response was "Yeah, he's using the clutch fine". They said "You're hired".

Sure, I can shift without clutching but if things aren't exact then boom, and those company guys don't like that!

 

[Stephonovich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snake Your Chrysler's AutoStick and VW Group's Tiptronic are pretty much the same thing.

Really? Interesting. Methinks the Tiptronic is a bit faster, though, and probably smoother. The AutoStick (at least, ours - and yes, the fluid levels are all fine) is very finicky about shift points. You get a bit of lurching if you manually upshift, whereas if you just let the auto control it, it's smooth. As for downshifting, I've found it to be smoother if you speed up a tad before dropping a gear. Not sure what exactly that's doing (spinning up the torque converter? I dunno), but it makes it smoother.

Quote:

The difference between a Tiptronic / AutoStick tranny and a regular automatic is the fact that a Tiptronic / AS are designed to be manually shifted, while believe it or not a regular auto is not designed so. The Tiptronics / AutoStick et al have hydraulic systems that have electronic interfaces installed to control flow. The computers actuate the hydraulics that control the bands and clutches. Therefore manually shifting tells the computers to alter shift control.

I dunno about that with the AutoStick, considering people routinely (OK, enthusiasts who don't care about their warranty) have modified non-AS cars by simply mounting a toggle switch on the dash to shift. Unless all the autos have the capability, and they just lock it out of certain models.

On coasting to stoplights, yeah, I do that a lot too. It depends on my mood, what car I'm driving, if I'm late, if I feel the car needs some blowing out, etc...

 

[Alexhifi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snake Now guys, FWIW "coasting" to a traffic light in neutral is illegal in the largest majority of states (yes, it's true, see your Driver's Manual). Since I am trained to drive Big Rig I use compression braking a lot, but not downshifting. I simply ease off the throttle to slow down, in gear, as required. No, it does not "wear down" the engine contrary to popular opinion. How do I know? My cars all had 200,000 miles on them with no failures due to this, and a Big Rig goes about 400,000 miles or so, sometimes much more, before they require a rebuild and that includes compression braking with downshifting. You must downshift a tractor-trailer coming to a stop because a big rig does not have enough braking power to stop itself.

Well, to call it a myth based on how many miles you have on your car is a bit anectodal. Good to see you have high mileage cars though...rare thing these days.

I thought about it more actually, I'd say I do a lot of coasting in high gear to a stop (which obviously has an engine braking effect) before I throw it into neutral when 20-30 ft out. Saying I just throw it into neutral and go all brake is incorrect, sorry. When I think of engine braking, I think of people downshifting each gear until they are literally in first and then stop. This is basically what an automatic does anyway.

Good info on the tiptronics, BTW. I thought Saab had a system called this as well...it was a car that had a stick, but no clutch. You could literally shift, but not use a clutch. Make my day and tell me about that w/o me having to look it up.

-Alex

 

[NightWoundsTime]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snake Yeah, but if you don't double-clutch between shifts most large companies will boot you out once they find out - they consider it "abusing the machinery". The last time I went for a driver's interview they took me on a road test with a company driver and when he walked back into the office his response was "Yeah, he's using the clutch fine". They said "You're hired". Sure, I can shift without clutching but if things aren't exact then boom, and those company guys don't like that!

Interestingly though the book that came with that GMC says not to use the clutch for upshifting. I'll keep that in mind though if I ever do a roadtest for a driving job (I hope not though, this is a family business and either I'll stay here or move on to something a bit more interesting to me).

 

[Snake]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich Really? Interesting. Methinks the Tiptronic is a bit faster, though, and probably smoother. The AutoStick (at least, ours - and yes, the fluid levels are all fine) is very finicky about shift points. You get a bit of lurching if you manually upshift, whereas if you just let the auto control it, it's smooth. As for downshifting, I've found it to be smoother if you speed up a tad before dropping a gear. Not sure what exactly that's doing (spinning up the torque converter? I dunno), but it makes it smoother.

That's because on most Tiptronic-equipped cars the throttle is control-by-wire, a computer circuit. On my 1.8T Tip the throttle is electronic so the ECU's (engine / tranny) can sync throttle position to up/downshifts. The Chrysler (until recently) had mechanical throttles and therefore the computers couldn't do that, so you get the lurching, etc.

If you want a faster response - and this works for Tips as well, like mine BTW - match your throttle position to required engine speed while commanding the tranny to shift. If you are downshifting you must give the throttle more travel as the tranny is downshifting to match revs better, just as if you were downshifting a manual tranny. My Tiptronic can be quite slow on downshifts if I do not do this - it is waiting to match engine & road speeds. If I match RPM's during the downshift Wham, it happens sometimes at twice the speed.

That's why you say the tranny drops down a gear faster if you "speed up" - you are better RPM matching to the lower gear.