[daglesj]

I've been corresponding with a friend in Australia regarding headphones. Seems he's after some advice so I mentioned you good fellows being the font of all thats head-fi.

Here is the note he sent me -

"I've never much enjoyed headphones, even the expensive electrotatic variety, as the sensation of music being performed inside my head has always been just too weird for my tiny brain to process. One exception I experienced years ago was via Sydney company, Lake Audio's headphone amp/processor. Somehow this device lessened the ' it's all happening inside your head effect'. Sadly that company was bought out my Dolby labs and I've heard nothing of the Lake Audio processor since.

A while ago I fell in love with a pair of relatively inexpensive earphones from AKG, their K242's. Not only are they very comfortable but they somehow minimize that awful 'inside the head effect' So, I thought I'd found the answer for my iPod listening while traveling until I learnt the iPod battery ran out very fast if used at anything like realistic volumes. I then picked up a Headroom Portable Micro Amp off eBay. Armed with my new toys thought I'd died and gone to airline passenger audiophile heaven only to have several fellow passengers ask me to 'turn that thing down' . Stupid me hadn't paid any attention to the amount of external leakage from the AKG's - - and there's lots!
My guess is that there's no equivalent for the openess of these things with any 'in the ear' type phones and possibly not even with properly sealed ear surrounding cups.

What I need now is my own Lear Jet but then I wouldn't have to use phones, would I?

Any suggestions ? A lot of the sealed back phones I tried out recently provided a very peculiar sensation in the lower bass that I found almost painful. Don't know how to describe it but the AKG's didn't suffer from this problem in the least. My suspicion is, sadly, this is due to them being an open backed design. Sigh.
As that ancient curse tells us "Be careful what you wish for"


So I'm thinking he's after something that gives a 'wider' soundstage than normal to avoid the 'in the middle of the brain' effect but will also avoid annoying other folks at a resonable level. Hence why maybe the IEM approach may work as well as full size? Comfort is a good consideration too.

At the end of the day open to any suggestions no matter how left field they may be.

Thanks guys.

 

[DrBenway]

These, maybe? They are an interesting attempt to break out of exactly the "inside the head" effect that your friends objects to. I still haven't heard them, so I can't comment on how successfully they do this, but the design is certainly intriguing. Search on the model number and you will find several threads devoted to them here at Head-Fi.

Edit: Oops. Completely skimmed over the part about the need for closedness. These obviously will not be suitable on those grounds. Sorry.

 

[catachresis]

We all want to argue that we're objective scientists around here, but though we talk about our 'factual' experiences, our judgments are intensely personal. For instance, how do we give good advice to a guy who generally doesn't like headphones, but who likes the K242s because they don't tend to sound like most other headphones sound to his mind?

Of course, that won't stop anybody (least of all me) from offering well-intentioned recommendations.

Does he want 'closed' phones that don't leak sound but that sound 'natural' and engaging without being claustrophobic? Perhaps the Beyer DT150s would be like that: I've been listening to a similar, older model, and though the highs and lows are a bit rounded off, the mids are wonderful and create music that is powerful, natural, and engaging. The old Beyer DT531s that I've been listening to are semi--'slightly'--open and they have more of a sense of 'air' and a deeper soundstage, but I don't find them to be nearly as engaging.

Maybe that's the trick: to locate folks who have varied experiences with closed cans? -Good luck!

 

[steviebee]

Budget??? Music tastes? He could try the Ultrasone range of closed cans - 'natural surround sound' it sez here (offset drivers allow depth perception as the effect of your outer ear is factored in) - pretty good sense of depth and spatiality, especially for a closed phone.

They have sponsor thread here + more to be found in Full Size forum.

 

[daglesj]

Thanks for the responses guys, some stuff to think about there.

As for budget well I think we can be reasonably generous here but not extreme. This will not be for primary use.

 

[zoompuddle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by daglesj /img/forum/go_quote.gif As for budget well I think we can be reasonably generous here but not extreme. This will not be for primary use.

Hello all - - I'm friend this thread was originally started for. I can go into silly money territory to 'get the music outside of my head' but whatever solution is suggested it needs to be reasonably portable and not generate ambient noise to the annoyance of fellow plane, train etc passengers.
I have no need (or desire) to use headphones at home being very happy with my main system (see below*) and not needing to concern myself with annoying others with loud music.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry it's taken me so long to post on this tread dear headcases, but for reasons your moderators may like to look into, it's taken a week for the email allowing me to register here to get to me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*V.P.I Synchronous Drive System: V.P.I. HRX turntable: JMW 12.4 arms x 2 ( cartridges pre-mounted) resting on heavy slate on top of Soundesign damped steel rack standing on a stone floor: Garrot ‘Optim’ FGS ruby cantilevered cartridge: Decca ‘London’ mono cartridge: Manley ‘Steelhead’ phono preamp: Boulder 865 integrated, Soundlab U-1PX Speakers with modified earthing arrangements apparently necessary to prevent the Boulder amp having a Hernia : Velodyne DD15’s X 2 sub-woofers: Nakamichi ‘Dragon’ cassette deck (remember them?): Pioneer PDR 609 CD recorder: Magnum Dynalab MD-90 FM tuner. Meridian 808.2 (replacing a Musical Fidelity A5.5). Interconnects were Eichmann bullet plugs & thin solid core copper teflon insulated wire (shielded silver from the turntable) but as the Boulder only has balanced XLR connections I’ve now knitted up home made solid core silver, Teflon insulated interconnects with Vampire XLR plugs.
Speaker cables are home made solid core copper from DNM with spade lugs at the amplifier end and hard wired to the Soundlabs. The room is large with non-parallel walls and a sane amount of absorption/diffusion treatment & Soundlabs 'Sallies' behind the stats. No bass traps are necessary.

 

[steviebee]

Wow...a Dragon...I just had a (golly was it 70s or 80s?) flashback

 

[zoompuddle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by steviebee /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wow...a Dragon...I just had a (golly was it 70s or 80s?) flashback

And it's still running to original specification on its original heads. I've managed to fool a number of 'golden eared' audiophiles they were listening to a high-end CD player with it. Tee Hee !
Best money I ever spent in audio and it enables me to pick up cassettes at garage sales for a few pennies and still enjoy them. OK, some people still claim cassette was never a high end medium. They simply haven't heard this thing strut it's stuff with metal tape and no noise reduction.

 

[xolp]

From my limited understanding of audio, I kinda think that soundstage is a result of headphone openness. Say for a speaker setup, the sound from the left channel does go into your right ear, and vice versa and this results in the sound being heard as originating from an area between the left and right speaker.

For an open headphone, there is some leakage of sound from the left towards the right ear and vice versa, wheras for closed and IEMs, there is significant isolation and lack of "crosstalk". This probably results in sound being heard as inside your head.

Despite that, I have seen some products which claim to simulate the HRTF, but i've never heard them. I believe they may also be amps with a simple crossfeed section, which delays and crossfeeds certain frequencies, but again, i have never heard them.

 

[steviebee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoompuddle /img/forum/go_quote.gif And it's still running to original specification on its original heads. I've managed to fool a number of 'golden eared' audiophiles they were listening to a high-end CD player with it. Tee Hee ! Best money I ever spent in audio and it enables me to pick up cassettes at garage sales for a few pennies and still enjoy them. OK, some people still claim cassette was never a high end medium. They simply haven't heard this thing strut it's stuff with metal tape and no noise reduction.

I was never a great tape-head & never owned such a cool machine as the Dragon, but...sigh....metal tape! Takes me back: all those hours taping friend's records...good times.

 

[Currawong]

I'd say Ultrasones. They are hit-or-miss though. If S-Logic doesn't work for you, then they'll sound worse, not better. It depends whether your brain is fooled or not. Also, some of the mid-range models have a lot of bass and treble, which isn't a very hi-fi like presentation. Pro 900s and the Edition 8 are reportedly not that way, but I haven't tried either regrettably.

 

[qusp]

if you get some headphones with a slightly open back; ie : with porous wood cups; you can get some of that open sound wth closed headphones and while they do leak a bit, its nothing like open headphones. there are some IEMs that will get there IE8, SE530, and ES3X JH13 out of the full customs, but we are talking some petty serious money although you can use the crossfeed on rockbox to achieve it on your ipod (if ipod video or before) I get a great soundstage on my woodied Denon D2000 and with my SE530 with crossfeed. where in OZ are you zoompuddle?? I have some gear you can try (see sig, I have some pretty serious portable rigs) and we can see if we can work out what you need. i'm in brisbane. alternatively you can come to a head-fi meet, there are 2 sydney meets coming up in july and august. these are the best places to try out the really good stuff in amps, headphones and aftermarket cables; as we arent so lucky when it comes to vendors in OZ.

 

[zoompuddle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xolp /img/forum/go_quote.gif From my limited understanding of audio, I kinda think that soundstage is a result of headphone openness. Say for a speaker setup, the sound from the left channel does go into your right ear, and vice versa and this results in the sound being heard as originating from an area between the left and right speaker. For an open headphone, there is some leakage of sound from the left towards the right ear and vice versa, wheras for closed and IEMs, there is significant isolation and lack of "crosstalk". This probably results in sound being heard as inside your head. Despite that, I have seen some products which claim to simulate the HRTF, but i've never heard them. I believe they may also be amps with a simple crossfeed section, which delays and crossfeeds certain frequencies, but again, i have never heard them.

Yes, all that makes sense xolp . That's why I'd really like to track down the Lake Audio processor that I heard feeding a pair of phones (Sennheiser closed back if I remember correctly) all those years ago. The result was a very natural impression that music as taking place in a real acoustic environment, not inside my head. Lake Audio was bought out some years ago by Dolby Labs but searching Dolby's web site I see no mention of any such processor. If I remember correctly the Lake Audio Processor was way more complex than a simple crosstalk generator. If there's no such device on the market now there sure is an opening for one.

 

[zoompuddle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by qusp /img/forum/go_quote.gif if you get some headphones with a slightly open back; ie : with porous wood cups; you can get some of that open sound wth closed headphones and while they do leak a bit, its nothing like open headphones. there are some IEMs that will get there IE8, SE530, and ES3X JH13 out of the full customs, but we are talking some petty serious money although you can use the crossfeed on rockbox to achieve it on your ipod (if ipod video or before) I get a great soundstage on my woodied Denon D2000 and with my SE530 with crossfeed. where in OZ are you zoompuddle?? I have some gear you can try (see sig, I have some pretty serious portable rigs) and we can see if we can work out what you need. i'm in brisbane. alternatively you can come to a head-fi meet, there are 2 sydney meets coming up in july and august. these are the best places to try out the really good stuff in amps, headphones and aftermarket cables; as we arent so lucky when it comes to vendors in OZ.

Thanks for the suggestions qusp but I'm a little confused about them. What are IEM's? Is that a brand name? Rockbox? Is that software I'd instal on my iPod? I live in the wilds of Tasmania although I fly to Melbourne frequently. Sydney gives me the horrors but I'd probably grin and bear it if I could try out some of your suggestions at a head-fi meet.
(That term always makes me think of a room full of nerds with headphones sucking on bongs? I wish!)

 

[xolp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoompuddle /img/forum/go_quote.gif If there's no such device on the market now there sure is an opening for one.

My guess is that HRTF is highly personalised due to the various shapes of faces and ear pinneas, and customising one for oneself would probably be beyond the reach of an average audiophile. The best universal solution would probably be limited to a crossfeed with delay and eq.

When i checked couple of years back, there were a couple of VST crossfeed programs, but none were convincing enough to justify inclusion in my signal chain. Have not done any research or listening to them recently.