[devin_mm]

First let me say I said no MDs because their experience will have been different from the one I would have. I love you guys though.... please don't let me die

. Now that's out of the way onto my question:

I am in my first year of computer science and I have been thinking what is the process like to get your PhD? So I put it out to those whom have their PhDs or in the process of getting one:

1) Was there anything special you did or recommend doing to just get in to graduate school (over and above marks)? Eg. volunteering, groups, undergraduate research

2) What's needed to go from a masters program into a doctoral program?

3) Was it worth it? Would you have gone through all the blood, sweat, and tears again?

4) Any general advice to someone thinking about pursuing that goal?

Thanks

 

[jonathanjong]

I'm in NZ, for the process might differ from Canada, but for what it's worth:

1. Graduate school is easier to get into that people think. It's getting into good undergrad school that's the challenge. It's a well-kept secret that departments WANT grad students. However, getting a scholarship for grad school is another matter. Besides grades, having had research experience certainly helps, even if only practically.
2. Again, it's mostly grades. However, if there's an option to go from an honours programme or your undergrad programme to a PhD., I recommend that route. It might be rough at first if you don't have research experience, but it saves time and the less constrained timeframe allows for more freedom in your research.
3. I'm currently doing a PhD., and while I don't think it's financially worth it (even if it's free, you start your career later etc.), but it's one helluva experience. And if you want to get into academia, it's sort of compulsory.
4. Think about what you want to do with your PhD. I generally don't think people who want to go corporate (or just non-academia, really) should strongly consider a Masters instead. Devoting several years to studying a very specific bit of any field is daunting and can get really tedious unless you really, really love the topic.

 

[UglyJoe]

Quote:

Originally Posted by devin_mm /img/forum/go_quote.gif 1) Was there anything special you did or recommend doing to just get in to graduate school (over and above marks)? Eg. volunteering, groups, undergraduate research 2) What's needed to go from a masters program into a doctoral program? 3) Was it worth it? Would you have gone through all the blood, sweat, and tears again? 4) Any general advice to someone thinking about pursuing that goal? Thanks

1.) I've never been a big believer in getting really high marks to get into grad school, unless you are trying to get into an Ivy school and nothing else will suffice (something I really find to be silly). Research helps, but so does scoring well on standardized test (the GRE, for example). Also, simply being a good interview, visiting schools and establishing a relationship with profs in your field can have a great impact on your success as far as being accepted by a school goes.

2.) Avoid going from a Masters to a PhD if possible. I guess this is field dependent, but in my experience (Chemistry), it's better to make an attempt at a PhD first. Many schools will place you in a Masters program if you are struggling with the PhD requirements. There is a lot of hype about taking 2 years to get a Masters then being able to get a PhD in a shorter timeframe than if you attempt the PhD without a Masters.... I don't believe this is generally the case. Most of the Masters students I work with here still take about as long to obtain a PhD as those who simply have a Bachelors of one form or another. If you really want or need a PhD, try to get it first. It will save you time in the long run.

3.) I guess it depends. I know many people who have dropped out of their field after getting a PhD, simply because they are burned out. However, the nice thing about a PhD is it generally gives you a one up in competition for jobs even outside of the field you studied. That PhD beside your name alerts potential employers to the fact that you are smart, dedicated, learn well, and can reason critically on your own, and this is something ALL employers are looking for, not just the ones in your field of choice. So in many ways, a PhD IS worth it even if you no longer want to stay in the field you obtained the PhD in.

4.) Don't give up easily. Obtaining a PhD is HARD, even for those who have found earlier education to be easy. The brain is much like a muscle, in my experience. Sometimes you learn things in that first year that will make you despair of ever being able to understand what you are doing... but by the the third year that first year stuff seems like cake. The more you learn, the more you strain yourself to understand, the easier it becomes to learn, the easier it becomes to teach yourself without as much guidance from other sources.


EDIT: Also, find a school that will give you a stipend and cover your tuition, if such a school in your field exists. Even if it means teaching labs, etc. Teaching undergrads even simple labs will only help you learn and understand more, although it might slightly extend the length it takes to finish your PhD. You'll be in less debt and have a better experience for it.

 

[Clutz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by devin_mm /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am in my first year of computer science and I have been thinking what is the process like to get your PhD? So I put it out to those whom have their PhDs or in the process of getting one:

Just a point of clarity- you said you are in your first year of computer science- do you mean you're a 1st year University student, or are you in your first year of the program? When I was an undergraduate at the University of Toronto during your first year your major/honors specialty wasn't specified, and you were just a general science student.

Quote:

1) Was there anything special you did or recommend doing to just get in to graduate school (over and above marks)? Eg. volunteering, groups, undergraduate research

Getting good marks is important, but it's not everything. They are especially important for getting into really prestigious schools, but even then, there is a lot to it. Getting good grades will help you get scholarships in graduate school, but having tremendous grades (i.e. 3.7+) definitely isn't a requirement for getting into grad school. Second, different grad schools will evaluate your grades differently. They'll look at your overall GPA, they'll look at the trend of your yearly GPA, they'll look at your GPA in your final two years, and at your grades in specific courses. Even if your overall GPA is low, if you showed significant improvement over the years that then that can be as important, if not more so, than your average GPA over all years. For example, a student who maintained a solid B average through all four years would probably be less interesting than someone who started out with lower grades (say a C), but ended up getting solid As in their last years and in courses that had particular relevance to your program.

Doing undergraduate research- especially if you are able to get it published- is extremely important. It can really separate out the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. The other major benefit of doing undergraduate research is that you will get to know your professors really well, and they'll get to know you. That means they'll be able to write you much better letters of recommendation than if you only knew them through classes, and they have connections to faculty at other Universities that you can maybe then make use of.

I can't say much about volunteering- I don't think that graduate programs probably care that much about it- at least not in the sciences, but I really don't know. I didn't do any volunteering- other than being an unpaid research assistant.

Quote:

2) What's needed to go from a masters program into a doctoral program?

This really depends on the school and the discipline. Masters programs in the US and Canada are treated very differently. In Canada if you apply for a masters program, then you are usually given the option (at some point) of transfering into a PhD program without finishing your masters, or you can decide to finish it. If *I* were to do it again, I would probably complete a masters first, and then go and do a PhD, if for no other eason than it gives you an early escape. If you decide part way through that this isn't what you want to do, you can finish your MSc and go on into the real world. In Canada, once you start your PhD, you won't be able to switch back down to a Masters. That is different in the US. Many schools in the US will allow a PhD student to transfer down into a MSc program if things aren't working out well for them. In short- you can't know the answer to this question without talking to specific schools and departments about their procedures.

Quote:

3) Was it worth it? Would you have gone through all the blood, sweat, and tears again?

That's an extremely hard question to answer. I'm making a lot less money now than I would've had I not gone through and got a PhD- although, I wouldn't be working in this field either. On my worst days, I like to say that the best thing that happened to me in graduate school was meeting my wife and getting married. On good days, it's definitely worth it. Generally I really enjoy what I do, and I have a hard time imagining what I'd be doing instead- but that doesn't really mean anything.

Quote:

4) Any general advice to someone thinking about pursuing that goal?

I think it's a good idea to have a goal, as long as you don't get too caught up in it. I like to say 'by all means pursue your dreams, but don't necessarily pursue your dreams at all costs'. I think it's a good idea to stop every now and again and re-evaluate what you want from life. I've had a few friends who just went head long into research, only to decide years later that they hated it, but they had got on the treadmill, drank the koolaid, and never re-evaluated how their life and priorities had changed.

I'd also say, if you're in 1st year- allow for the possibility that things will change. Your interests will change. Try not to stay beholden to a single dream. Don't give up on it, but make sure it still fits with what you want from your life.

Another important point is that getting a PhD doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to get a better job than you would've otherwise. In computer science, getting a PhD probably means that if you went into industry, you'd get a much higher paying job than you would without it- but it might mean you're background is overly specific- so companies may not want to hire you, because your degree would entitle you to higher pay, and maybe they don't need someone with that skill set to complete the job. It doesn't ensure that you're going to become a professor. People won't be any more (or less) impressed by you with, or without it.

On to the topic of becoming a professor: I'm a biologist, so I can only speak here about biology- so take this with a grain of salt. I've read that the average biology professor trains 5 PhD students in their career. That means that there is a *lot* of competition from other highly trained people for a relatively small number of professors jobs. Some fraction of those people won't want to be professors, or stay in science at all- but many of them will want to.

If you want to become a professor, then you really need to get into a prestigious program, and you really need to generate a lot of publications. If the average professor produces 5 PhD graduates, then you've got roughly a 1 in 5 chance of landing a faculty job. Better grades and better research during undergraduate work gives you the opportunities to work in better labs, with better funding, and better scientists, which further increases your odds of being able to become faculty yourself. I'm not saying it's the only route- I'm just going by the numbers. How many professors at the University of Calgary have a PhD the University of Lethbridge or Laurentian?

 

[Duggeh]

1) Got a 2:1. Applied for an M.Res, was offered the PhD by telephone. Maybe they particularly liked my research proposal.

2) In my case, nothing it seems.

3) Just got in, couldn't answer you that one.

4) Work hard, read ****loads. Make sure you have a REAL interest in what you want to do. Have financial backing of some kind.


I'm reading social anthropology at the University of St. Andrews. My supervisor is Prof Nigel Rapport.

 

[Omega]

1. Volunteering, totally unnecessary. You need to be solid in 3 areas, or outstanding in 2 of 3: research experience/recommendations, grades, and GRE scores. Research experience of some kind is a virtual requirement to get the kind of recommendations you will need to get into a top-flight PhD program. Good grades, depends, especially on your program. A 3.2 gpa from a demanding engineering degree will often carry more weight than an easy 3.9 gpa biology degree. The recommendations can be huge. I have a friend whose recommendations basically said, "despite being a 2.0 (of 4.0) student, John is the best student I've worked with in my 10 years as a professor." He got into a great school, did well. So, if you have poor grades, you will need to offset that with strong recommendations and test scores, etc.

2. To get a PhD, you need to be admitted to a PhD program. Some who apply will have a bachelor's degree. Some will have a masters or two. Some programs require you to earn a masters en route to the PhD. Some PhD programs will let you go straight to the PhD.

3. Worth it? Yup. Would I go through it again, knowing full well how much life it cost? No, probably not.

4. Make a plan, follow it. Average time to PhD in my program was more than 6 years. That's a lot of life to spend chasing dead ends. The students who do well have a plan, put in at least a few productive hours every day, and are proactive about finding mentors and soliciting feedback from them, on a weekly basis. The hardest thing for me was that you can't ever turn it off. Want to see a movie on the weekend? Sorry guys/gals, I've got to write up this Methods section. Then I spend 2 hours reading Head-fi anyway, as my cortex consumes itself. Focus. Get stuff done. Do some cool stuff, make some mistakes, learn how to drink from the firehose of knowledge. Get the degree.

5. Even though you didn't ask, it is not too early to think about applying for external funding. Funded students are happier students, because faculty are nicer to funded students.

 

[Omega]

An interesting perspective that a friend shared with me earlier this week:

Harvard Law admits a class of ~500 students a year, and they are ranked #2. My PhD program had 18 students, of which 8 successfully graduated with a PhD (pretty typical). It was a top 10 program. So, let's say that 10 other schools each accept 20 students a year (it is actually less than that).

This implies that my people entering PhD programs in my field that year faced at least twice as much competition as getting into Harvard Law. Twice that again, for those of us who graduated. Kind of puts it into perspective.

Also, if you want to be tenured faculty at a top50 college/university in the world, you're looking at maybe 10 openings a year, and you are competing with fresh grads, post-docs, and other young faculty for 10 positions. I have many friends who went to medical school, and law school. They openly admit that their grad school lifestyle was nowhere as demanding as mine or my peers'. I don't say this to be discouraging, or to brag...it is just a long, hard road that drives many to alcoholism and divorces, and if you don't love the pursuit of academic arts/sciences, it might not be worth it.

That said, today I have a very fulfilling career and the opportunity to change the face of science and save lives where the MD's and JD's do not (I am not faculty). To each his/her own!

 

[The Monkey]

Of course, those Harvard Law graduates are also doctors.

 

[wavoman]

I went straight through to a PhD after undergraduate school and it is the best decision I ever made. It is the ultimate credential (except perhaps for a Nobel or McArthur prize) and proves you know how to both create and work hard.

If you do it honestly it is an achievement of the first magnitude that no person or event can ever diminish. Do it.

Let me pick up on something Clutz said -- your undergrad profs getting you in to the graduate school of choice. I think this is the dominant factor -- for sure work closely with your fave undergrad prof and let him/her tell you where to go to grad school ... they can get you in with one phone call. Work on their research project(s) tirelessly -- if you can in fact get a co-authorship while an undergrad that is HUGE.

For actually getting the PhD, the principle is similar -- pick the right advisor. I switched -- very important -- my first choice was going to grind me down. The second prof help me push right to the degree. This is my #1 tip -- in the first two years, observe the students of all the faculty. Have some been hanging around a long time, not finishing? If they cluster around a particular faculty member, avoid that faculty member like the plague when choosing an advisor.

Also plan a very concentrated period when you have finished much of your dissertation and need to wrap everything up. I moved out of my house (my future ex was not amused, but then again she rarely was) to the YMCA in New Haven and worked 18 hours a day for 4 weeks to finish (boy was that a grim place).

With a PhD in Comp Sci there is no requirement you stay in research or academia. You can go anywhere in business, industry, or finance you want. You can earn a ton, believe me.

Good luck!

 

[devin_mm]

Thank you to all who have replied so far, there is some great information in this thread that will help me in the attainment of my goal. This is why I love this website it's a community of intelligent people, I knew if I went looking for Doctors' advice I would get quite a few well thought out answers.

A little bit of my background so you guys know where I'm coming from; I currently have a two-year technical school diploma in Computer Engineering Tech. I used that diploma to work in the Alberta oil fields for two years doing IT for an industrial construction company (Ledcor if anyone has heard of them). I decided I had enough of that and went back to school. I am 25 years old and it's kind of amusing being one of the oldest people in the room. I haven't decided if I want to go into industry but staying in academia does hold some appeal.

Just as a point of clarification for Clutz I am in my first year of my undergrad and at this university we don't start in general science (thank goodness I don't have to take bio courses).

I think my first goal is to get some information about undergrad research and I might as well start now at the beginning of the year.

 

[JonJeffman]

One thing to look at (sooner rather than later) is who the major funding bodies are in your field/intended school. If you're staying in Canada, NSERC would be one of the major ones, and if staying in Alberta AIF (Alberta Ingenuity Fund) would be another. See what they are looking for specifically and make sure you find ways to work that in to your undergrad program. Both these bodies will also usually hold some info sessions - check with the faculty of grad studies when these are (I'm at UofC too so I know they have them, but I think NSERC may have just passed).

EDIT: Sorry, forgot to say why this can be so important - not only is being externally funded a good thing financially, it opens up a hell of a lot of doors cause if a school/researcher knows that they don't have to pay you out of their own grant, then they're a lot more welcoming (hey who doesn't like free labour, right).

As mentioned before, getting a publication would be great and definitely makes you stand out from the other applicants, but that said, don't think that if you didn't get any research published that you blew your chance - many undergrads don't have this.

Another thing which I don't know exactly how to say it, is to see what the flavour of the month is in your area. Note that I'm absolutely NOT recommending you pick a topic you're not really interested in, but I know for example AIF has an iCore program for ICT topics. So, if you can find what you'd like to do within computer science, and try to apply it to one of these topics, money and opportunities will be more abundant.

Finally (and maybe this comment is a little bitter cause it's been one of those weeks/months) is to make sure you look past all the fancy words and hype that you'd get in the 15 min explanation of a research program to see what you'd actually be doing and if that fits with you. If you read the title of anyone's thesis it's going to sound like the most amazing, interesting, world-changing bit of research ever. But when you dig into it, that may have meant sitting over a petri dish, or running the same computer simulation with ever so slightly different inputs for months on end. So a grad degree can (and probably will) have periods of pure frustration, or pure boredom, so make sure you know that going in and can handle it.

 

[Spaceman_Spiff]

Funding is important, but you are in your first year of undergrad. Looking for PhD funding shouldn't even be near your list of priorities.

In Canada, research experience is the most important component of all grad school applications and funding applications. Get some. While you are getting some, get to know some professors who can write you excellent references.

Look into NSERC USRAs. These are federally (NSERC) funded summer research terms specifically for undergraduates, organized by your university (and every other Canadian university). The pay is not very good, but the experience is invaluable, and there is the potential to have your work published. You can hold a USRA at any Canadian university, so you can combine summer research with a holiday if you like. Applying for USRA's will also give you experience writing research proposals.

I don't have any direct experience with computer science, but as a general rule the amount of money available to grad students (and undergrad students) is proportional to how much they could make in the private sector. You should be in a very good financial position as a computer science student (compared to, say, a literature student).


Remember: When you undertake an advanced degree, you are making a large commitment to your supervisor, and your school. If your supervisor and/or school are not willing or able to make a commitment to you, then you should not be there. Don't even consider a university that is not willing to fund you.


More Canada-specific advice: I would also recommend doing a Master's degree before a PhD. Grad programs vary from country to country (from the comments above it seems that a Master's degree in the US is seen as a glorified BS), but in Canada a thesis-based Master's degree is really a mini-PhD. Doing one gives you: the option to bail out after two years with better job prospects than you started with; the option to change schools or supervisors after your Master's; the option to take a break and try a real job for a little while; and, the opportunity to do some research and improve your CV. Also if you work hard during your Master's you can complete some of the requirements for a PhD while getting your degree.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by devin_mm /img/forum/go_quote.gif 1) Was there anything special you did or recommend doing to just get in to graduate school (over and above marks)? Eg. volunteering, groups, undergraduate research 2) What's needed to go from a masters program into a doctoral program? 3) Was it worth it? Would you have gone through all the blood, sweat, and tears again? 4) Any general advice to someone thinking about pursuing that goal? Thanks

2. I did two Masters (one in the UK, one in the US) before the PhD, going straight from BS to PhD is a more common route in the UK in the US I think more people go BS---MS---PhD. My UK Masters was more academically rigorous than my US Masters which was all taught courses and aimed at practitioners. A taught Masters will not prepare you as well for a PhD.

In any case the PhD is all about you having a strong research idea, identifying a gap in current knowledge, and the commitment and grit and tenacity and research and analysis skills to carry out a major research project - you would literally be a(the) world expert in that (small) niche, it is not for the faint hearted as it can mean up to 7 years of your life and many folks drop their first idea and start over, I did , twice. But the reward when you get it is immeasurable and if you want to puruse an adademic career it is necessary.

3. Six weeks ago I might have said No, now I think Yes it was worth it, but there may be many days when you really just want to chuck it in.

4. As others have said what is YOUR motivation for it, can you do what you want to do afterwards without it, are you really passionate about it ? As others have said getting a place with a RA or TA stipend makes a huge difference.

Good Luck !

 

[JonJeffman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spaceman_Spiff /img/forum/go_quote.gif Funding is important, but you are in your first year of undergrad. Looking for PhD funding shouldn't even be near your list of priorities.

I wasn't trying to imply that he should go find PhD funding now, sorry if that was misleading, but they all list their requirements and I believe NSERC at least, lists their weighting factors for different requirements (i.e. grades 50%, previous research 30%, etc, etc...). So knowing that info early on could be extremely valuable.

For example if there was a major funding body in his area that values volunteer work very highly, then knowing that now gives him time to do it, as opposed to after he finishes undergrad and the scholarship application is due in 2 weeks.

 

[orkney]

Lots of good advice here. I did my undergraduate work in Canada (McGill) and then went on a Commonwealth scholarship to the UK for my doctoral work. Schools are important but choosing a supervisor is as or more important -- the PhD attrition rate is incredibly high, and a good, concerned supervisor will help you generate conferences and publications, source funding, shepherd you through the various complexities of a program and then guide you towards job opps.

The program IS important -- the uni I work at hires exclusively from the top three Canadian (and more often UK and US) schools these days, because competition is very tough and few find tenure-track work. But there's little to choose from between the top 10% or so of schools, and then who you worked with, where you've published and who you know comes into play.

good luck,

o