Cables, why all the fuss?

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotJeffBuckley Edit: It is increasingly apparent that members of this particular subforum are very, very hostile to talking about empirical evaluation and prefer a strictly qualitative approach. May I ask why?

I'm not hosite to talking about empirical evaluation at all. I'm hostile to someone stating that empirical evaluation is the only way to determine whether cables make an audible difference, that I can't possibly he hearing differences in cables, that it must be placebo and there is no other explanation, etc. I agree that empirical evaluation is something to be carefully weighed and considered, along with what one's ears reveal. I also think that most "believers" feel the same. On the other hand, the "non-believers" are generally hostile to any notion that someone can hear something that is not measured by instrumentation. It is the "non-beleivers" who will generally only consider one type of evidence, and not the other way around, IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotJeffBuckley I am not suggesting that cable differences don't change anything; rather, I'm insisting (and I do continue to insist) that there's nothing magical about the transmission of electricity that can only be accomplished sufficiently by very, very expensive wire compared to inexpensive wire of the same length and gauge. All of the tests conducted seem to be conducted on different lengths and gauges of wire, which leads me to believe that any sonic differences are perfectly explainable by those factors alone rather than by what seems to me to be vaguely alchemic ideas of the necessity of precious metal construction.

All I know is the silver interrconnect I tried sounded different than the copper interconnect I replaced, and I noticed this (as I have said in previous threads) even when I had forgotten that I had swithced interrconnects.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotJeffBuckley Edit 2: To put a question to you, PhilS, about your views on testing: Do you believe in A/B testing sight-seen? That is, can you tell differences sight-seen? If so, why would taking away the sight aspect make you unable to discern differences? That's the question that really baffles me insomuch as anything related to audio as a hobby can baffle me.

It wouldn't baffle you if you had experienced what I had experienced. To put it in an extreme way, I used to cringe at the sibilance in my system and I experienced listener fatigue. I changed some cables. Now I can listen for long periods of time. I don't need a blind test to tell me something changed when it is that obvious. I also don't need a blind test to tell me the sushi I ate last night from Restaurant X was not as good as what I ate the previous week from Restaurant Y. Also, to conduct a blind audio test in a way I think is valid takes a hell of a lot of effort. I am not interested in engaging in the effort, as I am confident of what I heard and am hearing. Also, I am not interested in conducting a blind sushi test either. I will just buy from restaurant Y from now on, as I am confident of my ability to discern different tastes with my taste buds given my experience with good sushi.

 

[rauer]

Ihmemies,

I'm not sure if you realized how much gasoline you were throwing to the fire posting this thread. No matter if you, I or the next guy like it, Jude has pretty clearly pronounced Head-Fi a subjectivist site. That explains the general attitude.

Go to an objectivism-oriented site like Hydrogenaudio and subjective cable-talk like this is only an amusement.

I personally visit both forums, but try to keep a distance from both extreme opinions.

 

[Jahn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rauer Ihmemies, I'm not sure if you realized how much gasoline you were throwing to the fire posting this thread. No matter if you, I or the next guy like it, Jude has pretty clearly pronounced Head-Fi a subjectivist site. That explains the general attitude. Go to an objectivism-oriented site like Hydrogenaudio and subjective cable-talk like this is only an amusement. I personally visit both forums, but try to keep a distance from both extreme opinions.

That's a good point. Isn't this supposed to be a DBT-free sub forum? It's in the title of the forum for goodness sakes!

 

[Filburt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rauer Ihmemies, I'm not sure if you realized how much gasoline you were throwing to the fire posting this thread. No matter if you, I or the next guy like it, Jude has pretty clearly pronounced Head-Fi a subjectivist site. That explains the general attitude. Go to an objectivism-oriented site like Hydrogenaudio and subjective cable-talk like this is only an amusement. I personally visit both forums, but try to keep a distance from both extreme opinions.

Heh, indeed these sorts of threads do seem to erupt into heated battles. Honestly, I'd be willing to give cables/ICs another shot at ABX again Lookif I had the opportunity. Like I said, I have nothing invested either way, and am genuinely curious as to whether it makes a difference. I just couldn't detect any last time I tested it, and again I've a trained ear and am able to pick out very subtle changes to the signal in other matters (such as psy-model influence), so I was a bit surprised to not notice anything given how much emphasis is put on cabling by some pretty big names here on the forums.

 

[RobG]

oh someone please shut down this thread. please.

I'd like to take this moment to thank RnB (Myo) for my 12" Diamond RA IC.


******THREAD CLOSED*******

 

[NotJeffBuckley]

In after thread close

If I ever get the opportunity to critically evaluate some silver interconnects alongside copper ones, I'll do my best to keep an open mind and let my ears tell me truthfully whether there is or is not a difference.

However, regarding trial and error being the only way to learn, anthropologists would tell you that culture is the only real thing that distinguishes humans from animals and one another, even. Further, I don't recommend taking a trial-and-error approach to most aspects of life, especially if you're thirsty and looking around the chemical cleaner section of a hardware store.

 

[eyeteeth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jashugan eyeteeth: it says on that very website, and I quote "B&W Nautilus 801 Loudspeakers/HTM1 rear speakers configured for surround monitoring up to 7.1 channels. "

Stick a pair in back and few others around and voila!
You're configured for surround monitoring up to 7.1 channels.
D'oh!

Mastering:Monitoring: B&W Nautilus 801 / B&W Matrix 805 // B&W 801 Matrix 3 / PMC TBI Nearfields

Surround Mastering:Monitoring: B&W Nautilus 802 loudspeakers; B&W ASW 3000; Chord SPA1424 Monoblock Amps

Editing:B&W Nautilus 802 monitoring driven by Chord SPA1232’s/B&W ASW 2000 Sub

Major Audiophilia Baby!

I'll be nice, give you the benefit of the doubt and consider you to just be st...ubborn.

 

[RobG]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotJeffBuckley In after thread close ... regarding trial and error being the only way to learn, anthropologists would tell you that culture is the only real thing that distinguishes humans from animals and one another, even. Further, I don't recommend taking a trial-and-error approach to most aspects of life, especially if you're thirsty and looking around the chemical cleaner section of a hardware store.

Humans have the ability to reason, distinguishing us from animals.

Reasoning includes learning from our mistakes (trial and error).

Time to move this thread to the members lounge....

*****THREAD CLOSED (REALLY)******

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotJeffBuckley . . . anthropologists would tell you that culture is the only real thing that distinguishes humans from animals and one another, even.

And on that score (assuming they really do say that), anthropologists are full of ka-ka, poo-poo.

 

[eyeteeth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotJeffBuckley In after thread close

It was fun while it lasted.

So which of our science students are headed down to their local dealer to borrow in the name of truth and fearless exploration?

 

[setmenu]

I have always understood that the ear was in fact a very sensitive device,
capable detecting pressure variations as Small as around a billionth of an atmosphere?
Whether an individual has attuned themselves to perceive such minute changes is probably another matter.
After all many humans train to maximize a particular particular 'natural' ability
in order to become the best in competition etc.
Not everyone can run the three minute mile.
So why is it assumed that hearing perception is any different?
Perhaps with the correct stringent training regime it would be possible to experience a quite considerable improvement in ones hearing.



.

 

[NotJeffBuckley]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobG Humans have the ability to reason, distinguishing us from animals. Reasoning includes learning from our mistakes (trial and error). Time to move this thread to the members lounge.... *****THREAD CLOSED (REALLY)******

You're way, way off base, but I forgive you because anthropology isn't a particularly intuitive science.

Eyeteeth, I'm more than open to testing various pieces of equipment, but there aren't any dealers nearby and I don't have the disposable funds to just buy stuff just to see how closely it conforms or fails to conform to the null hypothesis

If anyone wants to mail me some stuff, I'll be happy to mail it back after I'm done with it insured and with a tracking number

Edit: Setmenu, developing tough and quick skeletal and smooth muscle is entirely different from working with the limited equipment you're endowed with in your ears and training your brain to distinguish minutiae. The latter can be done, but the process aren't remotely analogous. The ear, like the eyes, mostly deteriorates with time, especially through heavy use.

 

[CookieFactory]

Quote:

Originally Posted by setmenu I have always understood that the ear was in fact a very sensitive device, capable detecting pressure variations as Small as around a billionth of an atmosphere? Whether an individual has attuned themselves to perceive such minute changes is probably another matter. After all many humans train to maximize a particular particular 'natural' ability in order to become the best in competition etc. Not everyone can run the three minute mile. So why is it assumed that hearing perception is any different? Perhaps with the correct stringent training regime it would be possible to experience a quite considerable improvement in ones hearing. .

Hmm, hearing perception and being able to run a 3 minute mile are different in kind. A better comparison would be if one could train his/her eyes to see further, clearer, or an electric fan spin clock-wise.

 

[setmenu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CookieFactory Hmm, hearing perception and being able to run a 3 minute mile are different in kind. A better comparison would be if one could train his/her eyes to see further, clearer, or an electric fan spin clock-wise.

OK, But you know what I was getting at, specific training.
If even a tiny signal into the ear is detected by the mechanism, there should be a signal that goes to the auditory centers of the brain.
It would seem that any training would be how to best sort this signal from all the other noise in there.


.

 

[eyeteeth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotJeffBuckley Eyeteeth, I'm more than open to testing various pieces of equipment, but there aren't any dealers nearby and I don't have the disposable funds to just buy stuff just to see how closely it conforms or fails to conform to the null hypothesis If anyone wants to mail me some stuff, I'll be happy to mail it back after I'm done with it insured and with a tracking number

Gee I do wish I had spares of stuff that did impress me (not ordinary supposed audiophile wire). I'd send it. I'm still incomplete in having the full loom top to bottom I want.

FTR, I don't consider myself to have better ears than anyone else, probably more listening experience than the average guy on the street though. I'm OK with $40 Belkin and CDs for background music.
It's when I get serious, phone and computer off, the tubes/vinyl/wall treatment/exotic wire come into play and happily the internet and it's colourful characters are far, far from my thoughts. What anyone else believes about anything is of no significance during those times.