[Shaffer]

Sorry!

If you look at the post, I was mislead by the forum quoting mechanism. yes. it was $haffer.

I like the dollar sign.

 

[Steve Eddy]

Who the hell is "JD"?

se

 

[MacedonianHero]

Who the hell is "JD"?

se

 
My buddy Jack Daniels...great guy...always there for me. 

 

[musikaladin]

...changing the standard cable of my LCDX, SE535 or D7100 to aftermarket solid silver cables I hear a difference. The LCDX improves while the 535 and 7100 can fall a bit too far to the bright side.
Well the difference is much more audible if I change all cables from source via amp to speaker in my speaker setup(s) from (high quality) copper to silver. The sound signature, especially the mid range, changes significantly. I can hardly imagine that anybody with "listening experience" would / could not hear it...

 

[nanaholic]

...changing the standard cable of my LCDX, SE535 or D7100 to aftermarket solid silver cables I hear a difference. The LCDX improves while the 535 and 7100 can fall a bit too far to the bright side.
Well the difference is much more audible if I change all cables from source via amp to speaker in my speaker setup(s) from (high quality) copper to silver. The sound signature, especially the mid range, changes significantly. I can hardly imagine that anybody with "listening experience" would / could not hear it...

 
Yeah and we call BS on that - sorry no polite way of putting it.
 
I'm an EE graduate and I specialised in analog and digital signal processing, during university I did dozens of test involving modulation/demodulation, many oscilloscope measurements, Fourier Transform etc over a range of frequencies from few Hz all the way to gigahertz level- and you know what we use in the labs for interconnects?  2 dollar copper cables with steel alligator clip and those things does jack all to the signals and experiments we do - which are done many times over and the results are constantly repeated.

When I can demodulate a signal with a carrier signal in the gighertz range using 2 dollar copper cables with 99% error free rate consistently over and over, you tell me in my face that swapping a copper cable to a silver one will change the properties of the wave significantly being carried by the cable, I'm just going to laugh in your face.

 

[BassDigger]

This bl**dy cable argument.....sorry, discussion, in all its forms, has been quite uninformative. I'm not just talking about this thread, but every cable thread/series of posts I've seen here.
 
I, like most I'm sure, just want to find out some useful information and to expand my understanding of the subject. All these 'discussions' tend to be is "Yes it does!", "No it doesn't!" bickering. Of course, this helps no one.
 
There are two extremes: If you take the cable companies view point, then you'll believe their marketing implications and you'll 'know' that not only do their cables make your system sound better, but they'll also increase your libido, your attractiveness to the opposite sex and your fortune. Of course, the more you spend, the bigger the effects.
 
On the other side we have the naysayers, who appear to deny that anyone has reeeeally heard any difference, between cables; the measurements and tests prove this, beyond all doubt; it's all in their head.
 
I believe that the truth lies somewhere in-between; I don't believe the marketing hype; I certainly don't accept the prices they charge. But I also can't believe that the cable that 'came in the box' is just as good as any other; my ears have told me different.
 
What I want to know, is what is a basic standard for the 3 different kinds of cable: speaker/headphone, analogue interconnects and digital interconnects. Can anyone provide solid reasoning and relevant listening experience to explain the basic requirements for each cable design?

 

[nanaholic]

  I believe that the truth lies somewhere in-between; I don't believe the marketing hype; I certainly don't accept the prices they charge. But I also can't believe that the cable that 'came in the box' is just as good as any other; my ears have told me different.
 

 
That's a logical fallacy call Argument to moderation.

 

[BassDigger]

   
That's a logical fallacy call Argument to moderation.

 
That's a form of coincidental correlation; I have reasons/experience to support my argument. Are you trying to say that all wires are the same?

 

[xtroria]

...changing the standard cable of my LCDX, SE535 or D7100 to aftermarket solid silver cables I hear a difference. The LCDX improves while the 535 and 7100 can fall a bit too far to the bright side.
Well the difference is much more audible if I change all cables from source via amp to speaker in my speaker setup(s) from (high quality) copper to silver. The sound signature, especially the mid range, changes significantly. I can hardly imagine that anybody with "listening experience" would / could not hear it...

 
Tyll from innerfidelity had already conducted the test and made the conclusion that it doesn't make any change. 
 
Why would stax put normal copper cable on the SR-009 if pure silver cable makes a difference on how the headphone will sound? They could simply make $1000 silver cable, charge SR-009 for additional $1500 and people will still buy it.
 
Numbers tell you the truth, in almost everything and please, telling anyone who's not into snake oil doesn't have "listening experience" is just a pathetic excuse.
 

   
That's coincidental correlation; I have reasons/experience to support my argument. Are you trying to say that all wires are the same?

Analog cables that are designed well enough will not sound any different compared to $500 silver "audiophile" cable. ****ty analog cable is simply ****, the good ones are the ones that work properly. 
 
The evidence is even more so for digital cable.

 

[nanaholic]

   
That's a form of coincidental correlation; I have reasons/experience to support my argument. Are you trying to say that all wires are the same?

 
Correlation doesn't mean casutation for starters, second personal anedoctes doesn't count as reasons/experience to supporting arguments in the scientific method, third I never made that claim.

 

[BassDigger]

 
...
 
Analog cables that are designed well enough will not sound any different compared to $500 silver "audiophile" cable. ****ty analog cable is simply ****, the good ones are the ones that work properly. 
 
The evidence is even more so for digital cable.

 
So........what is "designed well enough"? This is the information that I seek. 

 

[xtroria]

   
So........what is "designed well enough"? This is the information that I seek. 

Low crosstalk, low resistivity, thick / short enough to transfer the power around, doesnt cut out etc etc. 

 

[BassDigger]

   
Correlation doesn't mean casutation for starters, second personal anedoctes doesn't count as reasons/experience to supporting arguments in the scientific method, third I never made that claim.

 
Ok, you beat me at debating. But, can you actually help me to decide what makes a good cable, and what doesn't?

 

[nanaholic]

   
Ok, you beat me at debating. But, can you actually help me to decide what makes a good cable, and what doesn't?

 
 
A perfect analog cable will be a perfect conductor which would have zero resistance/capacitance/inductance, but of course that is not possible
 
  In reality anything of that which is measured in the micro range is "well enough".  And yes this includes 50 cent cables which you buy at radio shack or something.  It's really not an engineering problem that we struggle to solve.  Instead our entire electronic society is full of items that uses these things in reliable manners - including things where our very lives depends on.  Did you ever think about that network cable sticking out of your cable modem right now?  Why have you never though of changing that copper cable to a silver one to "increase the internets speeds" so to speak?  Afterall, if you believe the cablers, a silver internet cable should do *something* to your internet signal, no?  Think about that for a second.
 
I've bought several 100m reels of electrical copper wires for projects before from China.  They look like crap and were dirt cheap @ less than a few cents per metre.  I measured the resistance and inductance of these wires on a multimeter and it's so low that it fails to show up on the 4 unit places that the meter can show, I connected a 5V DC source to it and measured it on the other end and the rounding error is so low the meter shows 5Vs on the other end.  When scientific measurements can be tested and repeated so easily by anyone then you know that cables are really just good enough and it's REALLY hard to make a bad cable in terms of electrical property at the length that is usually used in audio applications (under 2 metres), unless someone actively put in components like an actual resistor to mess with the properties of the cable.

Now physical property such as durability etc, those are different matters.  And people are perfectly fine to choose cables for those reasons.

 

[BassDigger]

Spoiler: Quotes

  Low crosstalk, low resistivity, thick / short enough to transfer the power around, doesnt cut out etc etc. 

 

 
  In reality anything of that which is measured in the micro range is "well enough".  And yes this includes 50 cent cables which you buy at radio shack or something.  It's really not an engineering problem that we struggle to solve.  Instead our entire electronic society is full of items that uses these things in reliable manners - including things where our very lives depends on.
 
I've bought several 100m reels of electrical copper wires for projects before from China.  They look like crap and were dirt cheap @ less than a few cents per metre.  I measured the resistance and inductance of these wires on a multimeter and it's so low that it fails to show up on the 4 decimal places that the meter can show, I connected a 5V DC source to it and measured it on the other end and the rounding error is so low the meter shows 5Vs on the other end.  When scientific measurements can be test so easily then you know that's cables are really just good enough and it's REALLY hard to make a bad cable, unless someone actively put in components like an actual resistor to mess with the properties of the cable.

 
These are differences; different cables will have different cross-talk, resistance and capacitance. These are just some of the things that we can measure. (I don't think that we 'understand' all their implications, but that's another point.)
 
Back to my original question: Can anyone tell me what kind of (basic) things, to look for, in the design of each category of cable? I'm talking about physical examples of good and bad designs; putting a resistor, in series, isn't the only way that a cable could be too resistive. How thick? What kind of materials for insulation? What kind of construction?
 
Also, do you accept the possibility that there could be effects that are audible, but not measured (or understood)?
 
@nanaholic You're preaching to the converted, if you're telling me that 'household' cables can be just as good as 'audiophile' brands.