endless402
500+ Head-Fier
how do you measure soundstage width, height, depth?
Kees, with regards to your comment that blind testing is not considered proof by any scientist, I found that to be intriguing, so I went a googling and found that whilst not correct, it is not used anywhere as much as I thought that it was. From a 1998 paper in the journal of Scientific Exploration.
"A survey of recent papers published in a range of scientific journals
showed that the use of blind methodologies is very rare in the so-called
hard sciences. In the physical sciences, no blind experiments were found
among the 237 papers reviewed. In the biological sciences, there were 7
blind experiments out of 914 (0.8%). There was a higher proportion in the
medical sciences, 6 out of 102 (5.9%), and in psychology and animal behavior,
7 out of 143 (4.9%). By far the highest proportion (85.2%) was in parapsychology.
A survey of science departments in 11 British Universities
showed that blind methodologies are neither used nor taught in 22 out of 23
physics and chemistry departments, or in 14 out of 16 biochemistry and molecular
biology departments. By contrast, blind methodologies are sometimes
practiced and taught in 4 out of 8 genetics departments, and in 6 out of 8 physiology
departments. I propose a simple procedure that could be used to detect
possible experimenter effects in any branch of science, by comparing the
results of a given experiment conducted both under open and blind conditions."
A search of Science Magazine’s website finds no references to blind or ABX testing. Googling blind testing finds audiophile, wine, parapsychology and homeopathy references, where the aim is to disprove claims of effect. There is little to do with mainstream science., though this link is a good one to show where blind testing has been used effectively in industry with regards to a detector
http://www.skepdic.com/control.html
But there is no doubt that blind testing is a scientific approach that under the correct conditions is acceptable evidence
http://www.experiment-resources.com/
And in particular here
http://www.experiment-resources.com/double-blind-experiment.html
how do you measure soundstage width, height, depth?
how do you measure soundstage width, height, depth?
I don't know of anybody that claims there are dragons flying around their house. There is no evidence they are.
I do know a lot of people that can hear a difference in the sound of an audio system with different cabling. There afe measurable differences between cables, so there is clear evidence there is an audible difference between cables.
You can't. But an enhancement or diminution of a soundstage's subjectively perceived width, height and depth (as frequently reported) can only be created by altered sound waves leaving drivers and entering ears, and that before/after alteration can be measured easily enough.
How would the alteration be measured? The overall sound is the same.
Originally Posted by Kees /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Not true. Blind testing is not proof, nor is it considered to be proof by any scientist. "When external possebilities are removed"????? Is this in any way the case here?
Your argument is the same as "I worship the Sun, the Sun rises every morning, therefore my worshiping of the Sun is what makes it rise". That argument has worshiping as the link between the Sun and it rising in the morning. The reality is that the Sun would rise even when worshiping stops because it is gravity and orbits that make it rise and that is the link.
Quote:Originally Posted by Kees /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Not true. Blind testing is not proof, nor is it considered to be proof by any scientist. "When external possebilities are removed"????? Is this in any way the case here?
I'm sorry. No scientist uses experimentation on a subject without the subjects knowledge of the conditions as validation of a model?
Can people see X-Rays with their naked eye? Prove it! Make sure not to use anything tantamount to a blind test.
Quote:Your argument is the same as "I worship the Sun, the Sun rises every morning, therefore my worshiping of the Sun is what makes it rise". That argument has worshiping as the link between the Sun and it rising in the morning. The reality is that the Sun would rise even when worshiping stops because it is gravity and orbits that make it rise and that is the link.
I'm not sure if I want to listen to a science lecture from someone who doesn't know the difference between "orbits" and "rotation", nor between "gravity" and "angular momentum".
The sun "rises" to an observer on earth because of the rotation of the Earth's surface. The rotation is caused by the conservation of angular momentum going back to the formation process of the Earth.
I'm curious. I can tell a B&W 801 apart from a Bose 201 in a blind test. Why can't you tell cables apart?
I do know a lot of people that can hear a difference in the sound of an audio system with different cabling. There afe measurable differences between cables, so there is clear evidence there is an audible difference between cables.
A regular argument put forward by the pro-cable side is that the anti-cable side must have faulty hearing. Let us say that that is true and the pro-cable side do have better hearing. Why then do they also need to see a cable to get an accurately assess its sound? Why then do they fail and/or refuse to do tests which only involve listening for a difference?
Thanks this thread just saved me $284.00 I was considering spending on a cable for my hd650. Instead I am going to try a Grado 325i. I don't know why I was starting to fall for the hype when on my home theatre system I primarily use and love Blue Jean cables and speaker wire. Its amazing that it costs $300 for a headphone cable yet for the same amount of money gets you all the engineering and parts in a decent mid-fi amp-hi fi if you go audio gd. Anyway I think I will hear more of a difference from HD650s to 325i's than I would with a new cable on the HD650s-not better just different.