[Maxvla]

My post had nothing to do with the topic of cables (and neither did yours), merely your jest at society.

 

[n_maher]

A reminder to the participants in this thread (and others for that matter):

1. Keep it civil.
2. DBT or other discussions involving blind testing of any phenomena are prohibited in the general forums as explained in a sticky at the head of each forum.

This thread is perilously close to being closed.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxvla /img/forum/go_quote.gif My post had nothing to do with the topic of cables (and neither did yours), merely your jest at society.

Oh, well then I didn't really follow your reasoning with the color of the cabs and knowing when to "realize the truth."

Whatever.

 

[Maxvla]

The point was that even if you know you are right you aren't always and should keep an open mind even about things you know to your core are right. Sometimes society is wrong, sometimes they are right, but when factual evidence shows up you must accept the results.

I am not for the audible cable argument. I buy cables that are built well for durability or in the case of my headphone cable necessity (no 4 pin xlr HD600 cables, and stock ones are poorly made anyways). That isn't to say I know cables don't affect the sound, I just haven't been able to perceive it. I believe cables don't affect sound, but I won't declare as fact they don't.

 

[erikzen]

I have two thoughts with regard to cables.

I think of cables like the wheels on a car. Whether you have steel rims or some super light alloy, the basic requirement is that the wheels carry the car. The same holds true for cables, at the very least they have to carry the sound.

As you go up in price with either, the product starts to look a little nicer. With rims, they get lighter, have more intricate designs, and make the car look really good. There is some benefit to having good rims. A lighter rim should improve gas mileage and handling. And of course, they look great, you have the money, so why not?

Same thing with cables. A more expensive cable has a nicer looking insulation. The cord gets thicker. The plug gets beefier. The cable looks like a piece of machinery, part of your kit, not just some wire. It feels good in your hand when you connect it. And a nice audiophile rig just looks a bit better with beefy cables with shiny insulation and chunky jacks made of some exotic metal that you used to think was the name of a country.

Of course these improvements should, and in most cases, allow better operation than cheaper cables. Personally, I'm a sucker for a big plug (no, I'm not getting fresh) so I know I'm getting a good connection. Improvements in electron flow are most certainly welcome, too.

In both cases, in my simple mind anyway, improvements become more difficult as you go up in price. The price performance ratio eventually completely breaks down and unless you need every last ounce of performance out of your equipment, there is no point.

So who needs every last ounce? Race car drivers and audiophiles. I'm not a race car driver, although I do like to drive fast sometimes. If I could afford to I'd probably buy a car that was just a bit more like a race car than the one I have now. And I don't think I'm a true audiophile. I appreciate good sound, but won't invest a large chunk of my resources into it. Of course, expenditure is relative, and for some in this hobby money is no object. (Those people might also have race cars.) That's fine. If you've spent $20,000 on a stereo, then spending a couple of grand on cabling makes a certain amount of sense.

Which leads me to my next point. How much someone should spend on cables.

I like to keep the price of cables in perspective with the rest of my rig. I keep the price of my cables at 5 to 10% of my equipment. So I wouldn't spend more than $70 for a cable for a $700 DAC. This would hold especially true if you were trying to save towards an expensive upgrade in your system. It has nothing to do with whether I think better cables sound better or not. It has to do with what makes sense to me and my priorities. There's only so much money I can pump into my hobbies.

I'm not setting any rules on how much to spend on cables. The point is understand what makes sense to you and keep it in perspective.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxvla /img/forum/go_quote.gif The point was that even if you know you are right you aren't always and should keep an open mind even about things you know to your core are right. Sometimes society is wrong, sometimes they are right, but when factual evidence shows up you must accept the results.

And my point was that it doesn't matter whether you're right or wrong on certain issues. Even if you're wrong, you should be able to make your own choices, and not have someone else choose for you, based on the arrogant assumption that they know everything and know what's best for everybody else.

 

[Lorentz]

Comparing cables to cars, I think the speakers/headphones are more like wheels and tires, the amp being the car engine and gearing, source being the gas and injection, and cables being the minor but important parts that connect them together. Something something.

 

[Donald North]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif And my point was that it doesn't matter whether you're right or wrong on certain issues. Even if you're wrong, you should be able to make your own choices, and not have someone else choose for you, based on the arrogant assumption that they know everything and know what's best for everybody else.

Now Phil, you can't be questioning authority. Big Brother knows best. Just read the latest article published in the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, most likely authored by a middle age+ man whose hearing isn't as acute as a 20 year old and probably has never been an audio enthusiast.

 

[roadtonowhere08]

I am a skeptic of cables. I have always been. As long as the materials are of good quality, skilled people made them to prevent shoddy workmanship, and all the major attributes of a proper cable are met (low inductance, low capacitance, and proper impedance for the cable type), I am happy. Bluejeans Cable is where I go for my cables. I do not need bling, in other words.

Having said that, this entire site is built around a hobby. A subjective hobby. As silly as I think it is to spend a lot of money on cables (IC or headphone), at the end of the day, enjoyment of music is the name of the game. If people think that an über expensive cable makes their music sound better, that is all that matters. I may think they are nuts, but that is not the point. As long as they can pay the bills and have money to treat their family right, who really cares?

PhilS is right on this one. Musical enjoyment is not in the same league as a science with peer review. Who cares about who is right and who is wrong? Nothing is riding on this debate. Believers will empty their wallets, and skeptics will buy cheap cables. Both camps enjoy music. End of story.

 

[boomana]

This thread is closed until it can be cleaned up, and if it's too much of a mess due to the disrespectful members violating rules by discussing DBT, or just the amount of general rudeness going on, it will be deleted.

 

[boomana]

I'm opening this thread up one more time. Anyone who chooses to violate head-fi rules by discussing DBT in this forum and in this thread is risking banning. Anyone posting inflammatory posts or personal attacks, calling people liars, etc. is also asking for a vacation.

 

[oatmeal769]

Thanks Mods for recognizing the usefulness of this particular thread.

I'd also add my two cents, I think the thread remains constructive only if there is 'forward progress'. differences in whether cable differences are or are not audible should be taken as a given.

 

[oatmeal769]

X 2 for the 'bling bling' factor. artistically and 'techie' designs of cables look WAY mo' betta on my rig than basic cables. A nice looking rig is part of the hobby, just as a nice paint job is for a car person.
BUT - the same quality and 'bling bling' can be made by the end listener for a small fraction of what these manufacturers are charging. The cool connectors and wire wrap, etc. can both be improvised and /or found on eBay or an electronics shop.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oatmeal769 /img/forum/go_quote.gif BUT - the same quality and 'bling bling' can be made by the end listener for a small fraction of what these manufacturers are charging. The cool connectors and wire wrap, etc. can both be improvised and /or found on eBay or an electronics shop.

There is probably some truth to this, but it is also an extreme oversimplification, and therefore it is also false to some extent.

In addition, it's hard to talk in generalities, i.e., without reference to a specific cable product. Which brings up an irony that always makes me smile. The "skeptics" always insist on bringing a rigorous scientific approach to the issue of whether cables make an audible difference, demanding specifics and precise data, and rejecting anecdotal evidence. Yet, in the next breath, they will freely dispense anecdotal evidence regarding how "cable vendors make exorbitant profits," and how "the same quality cables can be made for a small fraction of what these manufacturers are charging." Shouldn't the "skeptics" be bound by their own evidentiary standards?

I'm not just directing this at you, oatmeal769; this discrepancy is found on several threads and in several contexts.

In any event, I'll say again that I think this issue is more complicated than it appears. For example, I have a $250 interconnect in my system. Could I make that cheaper than $250, with the same quality, given everything that would be involved, and considering my opportunity cost (which people always ignore)? I don't think so.

P.S. I got an estimate to paint my house the other day. It was $3,000. This is in line with what it costs to paint a house in our area. Could I buy paint and paint brushes and do it on my own time and spend out of pocket "a small fraction" of the $3,000?. Yes. Is it worth it to me to pay $3,000 to someone else to do it, considering the opportunity cost to me and related factors. Most definitely yes.

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boomana /img/forum/go_quote.gif Anyone who chooses to violate head-fi rules by discussing DBT in this forum and in this thread is risking banning.

Why don't you move it to the Science forum as has been previously requested?

If the cable forum is to be DBT free, then there simply shouldn't be a thread here titled "Cable Truths and Myths" in the first place.

se