[It Hz]

Dramlin

This is great information and exactly the kind I was looking for!

Yea, packaging 2590's in the PM2 presents a challenge. Fortunately, I have a lot of experience in this area as an electro-mechanical engineer who works closely with the EE's and know the right questions to ask. I am sure I can come up with a fairly elegant solution regardless of what components are used but may be limited by the effects of having to remotely locate the op amps with regard to cross talk and signal delay though I think the former may pose more of a risk than the latter.

I also understand that everyone who has knowledge in this area has their own opinion. Talk to 10 different engineers and you'll get 10 different answers. In a situation like that when I'm trying to solve a problem with conflicting information is to look for any commonality amongst all the opinions usually yields the best result with the least amount of risk.

OK

Bottom line on what you wrote above is: Based on your experience, a pair of 2590 duals and 992 discrete single op amps in your opinion yielded the best results in the Burson DAC. Not knowing anything about the 992 I did a little digging, and this is what I came up with

Sonic Imagery Labs Model 992Enh-Ticha Single Discrete Operational Amplifier​

https://sonicimagerylabs.com/products/Model992DiscreteOpAmp-Ticha.html


Here is the Sparko SS2590 for reference

Sparko Labs SS2590 Pro Dual Discrete Op Amp​

I imagine there are various sources for discrete op amps and this is another option, one that I was not aware of

Being roughly the same size they both present the same packaging challenge

Yes, can you post a pic of what solution you came up with in your PM2 installing your op amps. That may save me a lot of grief or perhaps I can expand on it.

Now I have another long thread to read

 

[Cygx1]

Just found this thread and it's directly related to what I doing / plan I'm doing / just trying to figure out (mostly the latter)

I bought a Playmate 2 a month ago to go with my computer build and plan on swapping out all the op amps with sparkos using a pair of 2590's singles on the LV stage using elevated socket strips from Digi-Key but I'm not sure about the IV stage. It appears the dual 3602's will fit under the 2590's without any modification but my understanding is the dual 2590 may yield better results. Doing that would require either cutting a clearance in the chassis which I'm not willing to do. The other option is to use a pair of flex DIP package extensions that Burson sells which is a little messy but I may be able to fabricate a small bracket to hold them in place

My question is: has anyone ever done this and are there any problems with this approach as far as any negative impact on the operation on the PM2 or sound quality? My understanding is the Sparko's draw a little bit more power than the stock op amps where running (4) 2590's (2 duals and 2 singles) may require more than a 3 amp power supply but I don't know for sure. The "cleaner" option is to use the 3602's on the IV stage but running 2590's is the ultimate set-up

Can anybody shed some light on what I'm doing? I am not expert on this but want a kick-butt audio system for my computer. I plan on getting the Hifiman Arya headphones and have a set of Kento YU desktop and SUB8 powered computer speakers

I plan on sending Andrew at Sparko Labs an email for advice, but I figure it's best to make an inquiry here first

Thanks in advance for any advice you can give

I did replace the opamp set with the 2590 pros many months ago and it worked just fine. Soundwise, its great of course, very clean organic and engaging. I honestly didn't research the issue regarding power, if the opamps will be enough powered or not, i just had the opamps and thought i will just try the idea, and it worked, but i can't say if they work efficiently or not.

 

[It Hz]

I did replace the opamp set with the 2590 pros many months ago and it worked just fine. Soundwise, its great of course, very clean organic and engaging. I honestly didn't research the issue regarding power, if the opamps will be enough powered or not, i just had the opamps and thought i will just try the idea, and it worked, but i can't say if they work efficiently or not.

I went back to Bruson's website to looking into the power requirement a bit more. They don't list the current demand of the Playmate 2 nor do they list it for their other models. What I did notice in their application list for the Supercharger for both the 3 and 5 amp models is that the 3 amp unit is suitable for everything they sell including larger models

The only models not approved for the 3 amp power supply are substantially larger and require forced air cooling. All the other units are approved for the 3 amp charger which leads me to believe there is enough overhead to adequately power the PM2 with 3rd party op amps

I plan on posing this question to Andrew at Sparko Labs and passing on what I have learned

As stated, just because the 3 amp PS is approved for the PM2 doesn't mean it won't benefit from a larger PS. If it can tax the unit closer to 90% in some instances a higher capacity PS may be a better option. I'm looking into it.

The more I learn about the Supercharger the more appealing it becomes. Specking out all this equipment is a slippery slope. What started out as a $500 dollar DAC and a $400 pair of headphones is turning into a $1000 DAC and a $1300 set of headphones

 

[Dramlin]

I did replace the opamp set with the 2590 pros many months ago and it worked just fine.

That is awesome to see! I didn't think it was possible. Or, maybe I'm just too paranoid about letting the op amp board touch anything else. In any case, thank you for the picture. I may just try to mimic that setup in the future with SI 992's in the single slots. I don't think I was clever enough to try crossing over the singles like that.

Being roughly the same size they both present the same packaging challenge

The 994's are just a bit smaller than the SS2590's, just enough to make the difference for me of being able to get into the case without touching anything.

The more I learn about the Supercharger the more appealing it becomes.

Unfortunately I can confirm the Supercharger does make a decent difference in the end sound. Everything becomes cleaner/tighter, and the tone is made more neutral. I can't speak to power draw or supply though.

Here's those pictures of the Sparkos SS2590 and SI 994's. My only goal was to get everything into the case without any part of the op amps touching anything else. The Sparkos are raised up via multiple DIP8 adapters, and the SI 994's are on the extensions. Both the adapters and extensions are sold by Burson:

 

[It Hz]

Dramlin

Talk about zigzagging to avoid an obstacle I think making a bracket to secure them in place will be geometrically impossible with my sheet metal brake bending skills

Thanks for posting these pics, it helps a lot

Yea, I think I'm going to take this route for my Playmate 2 with 992 singles in the LV stage and 2590's in the IV stage. I will need to exchange the (2) 2590's singles I originally intended for the LV for duals for the IV from Sparko

I got a response from Andrew. I asked him about whether it was worth shoehorning the 2590's into the PM2 over the direct fit 3602's where his response was rather brief saying "yes, the 3602's will be an easier installation which I kinda knew already.

I will respond inquiring if I can exchange the 2590 singles for a pair of duals and ask about the currant draw over the stock op amps including if enhanced cooling is a consideration and let everyone know what his response was

I'll order (4) 35mm flex socket extensions from Burson. Question: Reading the posts on the thread you linked, there was a discussion regarding the fragility of some of the connections using the flex socket extensions. I got a little confused on what exactly what the issue was. Were the pins getting pulled out of the socket extensions? I also noted it's advised to bend the pins inward 5 degrees to ensure antiquate contact pressure with the sockets

That thread you linked was very informative It didn't start to get interesting until page 44 (I started at the last page, skimmed through the posts working backwards until the "meat" of the thread started regarding the op amp upgrade). Between your posts and 2 other forum members is where the tempo really started to pick-up! It read like the sky suddenly opened-up and rays of sunlight were shining through

There is no way I am capable of noting the nuances being expressed but I'm certainly happy there are people who do. Kinda like hearing what a Wine Conosur has to say without the pompousness and snobbery

Bravo Dramlin, I'm very happy you got wind of thread and responded

I'm sure other forum members reading this appreciate it as well. Let's keep this going, I'm sure there are more details to learn

 

[Dramlin]

You are most welcome. The extensions are indeed fragile, I've broken more than a few. The 8 wires are soldered to the pin legs and covered with a little plastic piece. If you bend the extensions too far, or if you bend the extensions back and forth too much, the wires will snap off at the soldering joint between the wires and the legs. I'd recommend using a pair of flat tweezers that you can use to hold the wire just above or below the legs where you are bending, to alleviate any pulling on those soldering joints. You'll see where the pressure points are as you bend them, just have to be gentle and plan out how you are going to bend them ahead of time.

 

[Cygx1]

The more I learn about the Supercharger the more appealing it becomes. Specking out all this equipment is a slippery slop. What started out as a $500 dollar DAC and a $400 pair of headphones is turning into a $1000 DAC and a $1300 set of

Haha I guess this represents a typical recurring story in the audiophile world
Well I am very curious about the supercharger, an wondering is it worth getting or should I just sell everything and get myself a more advanced device with the same sum of money.

Here's those pictures of the Sparkos SS2590 and SI 994's. My only goal was to get everything into the case without any part of the op amps touching anything else. The Sparkos are raised up via multiple DIP8 adapters, and the SI 994's are on the extensions. Both the adapters and extensions are sold by Burson:

Well that's an interesting setup too, thanks for sharing. To be honest I cam across the Sonic Imagery products quit recently on eBay, and been very tempted to try it. Can you say anything about them compared to the Sparkos SS2590?
About my setup, I honestly wasn't sure in the beginning if it was going to work or not, but after few trials it did. The doubles on the side are just on the edge near the chasis, if they were a tad bigger it wouldn't have worked. I kept the singles on the flexible extenders crossed to minimize the interference.

 

[It Hz]

Dramlin

Question: the picture you posted of the Op Amp installation in the PM2 threw me off a little

My understanding is the best results in the PM2 are with the 992 Singles in the LV stage and 2590's Duals installed in the IV stage

The photo posted shows the opposite

Is that correct?

I know you were experimenting with a lot of different configurations and perhaps those photos are of an earlier config

Just want to make sure I got this right before placing the order, thanks

 

[Dramlin]

Well I am very curious about the supercharger, an wondering is it worth getting or should I just sell everything and get myself a more advanced device with the same sum of money.

That's a hard one. The supercharger makes a difference, it sounds better, but is priced too high on its own. I got mine free with the PM2 as Burson had that in a promo. Burson often has sales or deals around the supercharger, so I'd wait until a really good one occurs. Second to all this is the question is are you are happy with your setup? If so and you just want some further improvement, it's worth it. If you aren't happy, want a lot better, or want something completely different, it may be better to use that money elsewhere.

Can you say anything about them compared to the Sparkos SS2590?

I think most of the comparisons are best described in the following 3 posts:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/new...preamp-changeable-opamps.912911/post-16601190
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/new...preamp-changeable-opamps.912911/post-17065938
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/new...preamp-changeable-opamps.912911/post-17089196

That said, the best two op amps from a technical perspective are the Sparkos SS2590 and SIL 992/994's. You've already got the Sparkos installed, so your sound is already very good from a technical perspective. If you find the sound boring, or want a different flavor, then trying adding the the SIL 992 will probably be worth it. If you are already content with your sound, then you may just want to leave it be.

My understanding is the best results in the PM2 are with the 992 Singles in the LV stage and 2590's Duals installed in the IV stage

The photo posted shows the opposite

Is that correct?

Yes, the best results I've found on the Conductor 3 Reference are the 992 Singles with the Sparkos 2590 duals. However, I couldn't get that combination in the PM2 case due to the size of the Sparkos. So, my setup (the one pictured) is the 2590 singles with the 994 Duals. That would be my second choice for adding op amps. I would use the 992+2590 if I felt comfortable putting those Sparkos duals in there. You might be able to achieve that setup if you put them in like Cygx1 did. I gave up trying, and I'm happy with my sound at the moment so I'll leave it be .

As long as it's the 2590 or 992/994's (or a combination of) it will sound very good. I'm just talking about absolute ideals here, there's plenty of good sounding op amp combinations in the PM2. The V6 Vivids are a step down in quality comparitevly, but they also sound great. They aren't in the same league as the previous two mentioned, but they are still very enjoyable. For nearly a year I was using SIL 992's + V6 Vivid duals and I was quite happy with it. Lots of good options

 

[It Hz]

OK, Andrew responded regarding the current draw of the 2590 single which he said is 60 mA

Assuming a pair of duals that's 240 mA which should be fine with a 3A power supply

 

[It Hz]

Yes, the best results I've found on the Conductor 3 Reference are the 992 Singles with the Sparkos 2590 duals. However, I couldn't get that combination in the PM2 case due to the size of the Sparkos. So, my setup (the one pictured) is the 2590 singles with the 994 Duals. That would be my second choice for adding op amps. I would use the 992+2590 if I felt comfortable putting those Sparkos duals in there. You might be able to achieve that setup if you put them in like Cygx1 did. I gave up trying, and I'm happy with my sound at the moment so I'll leave it be .

As long as it's the 2590 or 992/994's (or a combination of) it will sound very good. I'm just talking about absolute ideals here, there's plenty of good sounding op amp combinations in the PM2. The V6 Vivids are a step down in quality comparitevly, but they also sound great. They aren't in the same league as the previous two mentioned, but they are still very enjoyable. For nearly a year I was using SIL 992's + V6 Vivid duals and I was quite happy with it. Lots of good options

OK, now I understand

There is a "fitment" issue with the PM2 which is why you configured your PM2 like you did. Got it!

That actually makes thing easier as can use the 2590 singles that I already have for the LV stage and just order the 994 duals for the IV
http://www.sonicimagerylabs.com/products/Model994DiscreteOpAmp-Ticha.html

Based on your "very" detailed description of the sound characteristic it's probably something I'll never notice. Coming from a pair of beat-up Audio Technica M50X ($150) headphones driven by a 13 year old Asus Formula III MB DAC to a Burson PM2 chocked full with top-of-the-line op amps and a set of Hifiman Arya's will be like trading-up from a 1973 chevy Vega with 100,000 miles on the clock to a brand-new Lexus

Youd Da Man!

edit: I got the LV and IV stages backwards on this post but made the correction

 

[It Hz]

OK, ordered the dual 994 (non-LV version) op amps from Sonic Imagery. Now I need to order the 35mm flex DIP socket extensions and DIP sockets from Burson

One item I thought I would mention are the Discrete Voltage Regulators from Sparko Labs I stumbled across when looking at their op amps. I read the information on their web site and they seem to be very appealing. The information posted says it's a better improvement than any upgraded power source mod than you can buy which in my case would be the Burson Supercharger which is expensive where to upgrade to these would cost less than $200 vs $280 for the Supercharger. But these would require some solder work to install and would instantly void the warrantee. I did not check the p/n of the regulators on the PM2 to see if they were compatible, but something tells me they are as they have 3 different models where one of more is a direct replacement and looking at the PM2 PCB voltage regulators looks like it's a "drop-in, solder and screw mount" fit, you will just have to bend the pins straight before soldering into the board.

I did some digging but found very little information on them other than what's on the web site. There are 2 YT videos one from Sparko but all they talk about is the manufacture process and another one that is all but useless to evaluate their value with regard to any improvement in sound quality by filtering noise on the power bus on the DAC PCB. I also did a search here on Head-Fi but found nothing.

Does anyone have any knowledge on these they could share? I'm not an electrical or audio engineer but would be interested in hearing from someone with knowledge on this topic about their views doing this mod.

Not that I plan on buying a set for reasons stated but it may be a good or better alternative to the Supercharger and costs almost $100 less.

I've been communicating with Andrew and added that there was very little info on these other than his web site and that it may be a good idea to post a more informative video on YT with some kind of demo and perhaps an oscilloscope screen shot. Right now, they are somewhat "invisible" in the community. Perhaps he will respond and post that vid.

Just thought I would toss this one into the ring and see if it generates a discussion as I would be interested in what people with knowledge is on this type of component has to say

 

[It Hz]

Update

Andrew at Sparko sent me an email regarding the Voltage regulators and thinks what he has is not compatible. I told him I'll get him the p/n's to confirm this but it would require me popping the lid off my PM2 to read the numbers off the devices. If anyone has a photo with a clear view of the text on the regulators or knows the p/n's please post them and I will forward it to Andrew

Dramlin

How many DIP sockets do I need to order from Burson to get the Sparko and Sonic Imagery op amps to fit with the flex extenders and where they need to go? I can see some of it in the photos you posted but just want to make sure I order the correct number and install them correctly. If it requires staking multiple sockets I may consider ordering elevated DIP sockets from Digi-Key as I'm not crazy about stacking sockets. Need to know this before placing the order with Burson. Thanks

I should have the Sonic Imagery op amps in a few days but won't be installing them until my rig is finished and have ample burn-in on the PM2 just to make sure the unit is working correctly

 

[Dramlin]

How many DIP sockets do I need to order from Burson to get the Sparko and Sonic Imagery op amps to fit with the flex extenders and where they need to go?

8 DIP's total:

• 4 on the largest Sparkos stack
• 2 on the smaller Sparkos stack
• 1 on each of the 994's. The 992/994's don't have a soldered DIP connector; the DIP connector easily removed from the op amp board and somewhat difficult to put back together. Because of this it's generally easiest to install the 992/994's into a DIP8 socket to make them easier to intall or uninstall without having to mess with the connector attached to the op amp,

All that said, it's always best to get a few extra DIP8 sockets as well. Sometimes the legs can be a bit thinner than expected, or the sockets can be too wide to make great contact. If there's a way of avoiding stacking the sockets together that would be even better. If you can find a good quality elevated socket I'd love to get a link to that on digikey as it may end up improving the signal overall. Another option would be to try and mimic Cygx1's install method which would eliminate the Dip8 sockets altogether. If that's possible using Sparkos duals, it should also be possible on the 994's since they are slightly smaller.

-- Edit. One other item to add is that things like this are a no go:

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/mill-max-manufacturing-corp/299-93-308-10-001000/248999

I used a few of these to create a 'Bullhorn' setup to install op amps flat in my C3R. It technically worked, but the sound quality took a major dive.

 

[It Hz]

Thanks Dremlin, you've been a big help to me making better decisions and saving me a lot of grief

The new Arya's just arrived

I'll get back to you regarding the op amp install I gotta run. Making great progress on my PC rig, hopefully will post pics soon