[Stephonovich]

No, I don't understand why we should go out and fork $$$ over to prove ourselves right. Generally, when a majority agrees with something, and someone wishes to prove them wrong, they go out and spend the time and money doing so.
OK, let's review these...

A car will improve with time due to the seals of the engine settling in, giving better compression, and better performance.

A shoe gets more comfortable via the materials contouring to your foot.

Wine and cheese improve by chemical reactions. (I'm not much of a wine & cheese person, wine obviously, due to being underage...)

Guitar strings improve by stretching. When I first got mine, I had to re-tune every time I took my guitar out, even it was only sitting for an hour.

Why is it so impossible to believe headphone drivers (or speakers) improve by the driver expanding? And yes, I agree that with time, they can return to their previous state. Some more than others, it has been said..

(-:Stephonovich

 

[JaZZ]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mike Scarpitti I made it QUITE CLEAR that the burden of proof is on YOU. Do you understand why that is? The instances you mention above have well-understood mechanisms. I do not claim that burn-in is impossible, but that no convincing mechanism has been proposed or cited for it, and that any mechanism I can think of would damage or destroy them.

That's new: you don't claim that burn-in is impossible, but constantly claim it's just imagination!? I just can't follow why it should necessarily lead to destruction, that's too esoteric for me. Whats so deadly with a slightly increasing suspension compliance?

BTW what has heating up and cooling down of electonic components to do with sound changes... in your perspective? Is it more plausible to you than the much simplier example of a very slow continuous driver suspension fatigue?

 

[Mike Scarpitti]

Quote:

Originally posted by AndrewB Mike, If folk believe they believe, no measuring or quantifing will change their opinion. Besides you might be wrong? maybe? Naw didn't think so.

Of course I could be wrong, but I am in the enviable position of not bearing the burden of proof.

I say, prove to me with double-blind testing. When I say any changes from so-called 'burn-in' are 'trivial', I mean:

1. You could not tell them apart from non-burned-in headphones on a statistically significant basis.

or

2. The 'change' from burning-in headphones must be significantly greater than manufacturing variations, on a statistically significant basis identifiable from measurement.

 

[JohnSmith]

The solution to the problem of this troll is right here:

Ignore Him

 

[Stephonovich]

I was going write in again. My point has been re-iterated twice now by myself.

We are the majority.
You are the minority.
You have money (if you have R10, obviously...).
We do not.

End of discussion.

(-:Stephonovich

 

[AndrewB]

[/SIZE][/QUOTE] Quote:

[size=xx-small] Any change that occurs as a result of the heating would disappear after the unit is allowed to cool, and reappear when heated again.[/size]

Mike,
No, Thermal stressing can lead to misalignment (out of calibration), and premature component failure. Even when a unit is within nominal spec's. Hidden flaw's in components, ESD mishandling, will compound with heating/cooling cycles to cause premature failure


I can thinkof a headphone break-in scenariofollow this:HD600 manufactured in great quantity small batches less than 5% are tested, no failure, batch passes and is shipped to consumers.Even though these have passed QA/QC ISO (yada, yada) there MIGHT be residual particulate from conductor insulation/glues/epoxies/ a stray piece of frayed nylon (what have you) from the manufacturing process. That had slipped into the small air gap between the driver coil/magnet/ housing. So as the particulate works its way out of the driver coil/magnet/ housing the headphone "SOUNDS" different.

It would present a non quantifiable "break-in" that would really not be measureable by any instrument other than a ear. Conversely, the particulate would have to clear, or it would lead to premature failure of the driver/coil.

 

[Mike Scarpitti]

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephonovich No, I don't understand why we should go out and fork $$$ over to prove ourselves right. (-:Stephonovich

It's called the burden of proof. Prove to me that you were NOT kidnapped by aliens last night and all your thoughts and memories transplanted into a substitute.

Go ahead, try!

Right! You see? You can never dis-prove a negative. Also, extrordinary claims require extraordinarty evidence.

Now, we know WHY those other things happen (to shoes, cars, etc). We know that temperature affects the characteristics of materials, including their electrical properties. We know therefore why amps sound different after being on for a while, and why tubes need to be replaced. Any change in headphones must be merely a TEMPORARY temperature-induced change in the elasticity of the suspension. Any PERMANENT change would result in damage. A slightly looser suspension could have slight effects on the sound, but the notion of some magical 'burn-in' that goes beyond this is sheer fantasy. There is no mechanism for it.

 

[Noesis]

Just a few notes. In my home audio experiances and reading I have learned the following:

1) Often bigger drivers require longer break-in.
2) Some speakers are more affected by break-in then others.
3) Subwoofers seem to have the longest break-in times.
4) Driver break-in is offen the suspension of the driver loosening up and becoming more flexable.
5) Break-in with other parts is normally far less noticable then with a driver.
6) It's break-in, not burn in. Maybe in the headphone world you guys call it burn in as it seems to be...but the standard in home audio seems to be break-in (see Stereophile, books, etc.)... I don't see why it should be any different in headphone audio.

Happy listening!
-Chad

 

[Mike Scarpitti]

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephonovich I was going write in again. My point has been re-iterated twice now by myself. We are the majority. You are the minority. You have money (if you have R10, obviously...). We do not. End of discussion. (-:Stephonovich

This is irrelevant, as is always the case in scientific inquiry. Survey says: Sun revolves around the Earth! therefore it is true!

 

[Mike Scarpitti]

Quote:

Originally posted by AndrewB [/SIZE]

Mike,
No, Thermal stressing can lead to misalignment (out of calibration), and premature component failure. Even when a unit is within nominal spec's. Hidden flaw's in components, ESD mishandling, will compound with heating/cooling cycles to cause premature failure
[/QUOTE]

I was speaking of merely normal thermal cycling, in which no damage is caused, but audible differences appear, i.e., why an amp sounds different when warm.

 

[Stephonovich]

Reminds me of a time in Counter-Strike. A person (named el33t hax0r or something stupid like that) was bragging how his team rocked, ours sucked, his was gonna kick our arses, etc. etc. etc...
Next round, he was first to die. I commented on this. He said, "completely irrevelant." Except he left after that...

(-:Stephonovich

 

[AndrewB]

Mike can you agree to the following:

Quote:

I can thinkof a headphone break-in scenariofollow this:HD600 manufactured in great quantity small batches less than 5% are tested, no failure, batch passes and is shipped to consumers.Even though these have passed QA/QC ISO (yada, yada) there MIGHT be residual particulate from conductor insulation/glues/epoxies/ a stray piece of frayed nylon (what have you) from the manufacturing process. That had slipped into the small air gap between the driver coil/magnet/ housing. So as the particulate works its way out of the driver coil/magnet/ housing the headphone "SOUNDS" different. It would present a non quantifiable "break-in" that would really not be measureable by any instrument other than a ear. Conversely, the particulate would have to clear, or it would lead to premature failure of the driver/coil.

 

[Mike Scarpitti]

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephonovich Reminds me of a time in Counter-Strike. A person (named el33t hax0r or something stupid like that) was bragging how his team rocked, ours sucked, his was gonna kick our arses, etc. etc. etc... Next round, he was first to die. I commented on this. He said, "completely irrevelant." Except he left after that... (-:Stephonovich

What's 'irrelevant' is the simple belief that 'x' is true. You must present good evidence, evidence that would meet scientific standards.

 

[AndrewB]

Hello Mike,

Are you out there????

 

[Mike Scarpitti]

Quote:

Originally posted by AndrewB Mike can you agree to the following: I can thinkof a headphone break-in scenariofollow this:HD600 manufactured in great quantity small batches less than 5% are tested, no failure, batch passes and is shipped to consumers.Even though these have passed QA/QC ISO (yada, yada) there MIGHT be residual particulate from conductor insulation/glues/epoxies/ a stray piece of frayed nylon (what have you) from the manufacturing process. That had slipped into the small air gap between the driver coil/magnet/ housing. So as the particulate works its way out of the driver coil/magnet/ housing the headphone "SOUNDS" different. It would present a non quantifiable "break-in" that would really not be measureable by any instrument other than a ear. Conversely, the particulate would have to clear, or it would lead to premature failure of the driver/coil.

This is possible, surely, but it cannot be common enough to be universally applicable in the way that has been asserted here.