Burn-in Naysayers:

[incipient]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnor /img/forum/go_quote.gif And now go back and listen to your old equipment for a week, then switch back to the PX100 and you'll see that there still is too much bass and muddiness, cause that's the way the PX100 sound. You'll experience what you described a second time. And that is that.

Yes, I have done that. I am not kidding, there was a marked difference after the initial break-in.

TBH, I feel that the sound has gotten more better after ~5 weeks compared to what it was after 2 weeks. Maybe this latter improvement is psychological, can't say for certain.

The bass is IMO decent but still kinda muddy (not crisp/taut). On this forum someone described the PX100 sound as dark, I think I get what he means & I agree.

 

[terriblepaulz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by incipient /img/forum/go_quote.gif ... Maybe this latter improvement is psychological ...

Maybe? The alternative is that the physical structure of your equipment changed to produce a different sound than it did before AND you have sufficient recall to distinguish the two listening experiences. Hmmm, I wonder which is more likely.

 

[incipient]

The same song(s) (that have heard >100 times) sounded different b/w 2-5 week but since my assessment is based on recall, I qualified it with a "maybe".

I can see from your signature that you too have a PX-100, did you experience any break-in?

 

[xnor]

I also have one and if you listen to it at first it really (*) sounds muddy (which it isn't) but clears up after a while once you get used to it's darker tonality.
I'm using them with EQ for a couple of weeks now. Disabling the EQ gives me the initial feeling (*), so I wouldn't say driver's changed.

 

[Iniamyen]

Physical properties of materials that diaphragms are made out of; I can understand how these could change with time and usage. If you stretch a piece of plastic a few million times it might loosen up a little bit.

Electrical properties of materials that conductors are made out of, I don't think is as likely.

Why are people trying to make these separate things the same issue?

Edit: FWIW, I have experienced what I think is burn in on both of my headphones. Whether this is psychological or real, I really have no idea. I am open to the fact that it's a real change, though, because of the reasoning above.

 

[terriblepaulz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by incipient /img/forum/go_quote.gif The same song(s) (that have heard >100 times) sounded different b/w 2-5 week but since my assessment is based on recall, I qualified it with a "maybe". I can see from your signature that you too have a PX-100, did you experience any break-in?

Nope. I did not notice any change from out-of-the-box to the time they went to the wife (about 6 months). To the extent there was any difference in my listening experience from day to day, I attribute that to my brain habituating itself to the sound. That explanation, unlike "break-in", does not involve magical thinking.

 

[Iniamyen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by terriblepaulz /img/forum/go_quote.gif Nope. I did not notice any change from out-of-the-box to the time they went to the wife (about 6 months). To the extent there was any difference in my listening experience from day to day, I attribute that to my brain habituating itself to the sound. That explanation, unlike "break-in", does not involve magical thinking.

How does the fact that wear over time causes changes in the physical/mechanical properties of materials involve "magical thinking?" I think this is a well established fact. Whether it has any effect in the type of materials used in headphones, or even whether the effects are audible I don't know (see my previous post.) But I doubt you do either, except based on (biased) personal experience.

 

[bdr529]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iniamyen /img/forum/go_quote.gif How does the fact that wear over time causes changes in the physical/mechanical properties of materials involve "magical thinking?" I think this is a well established fact. Whether it has any effect in the type of materials used in headphones, or even whether the effects are audible I don't know (see my previous post.) But I doubt you do either, except based on (biased) personal experience.

I think the magic comes into play as all these physical changes tend to only make things get better in every possible way.

 

[Iniamyen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdr529 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think the magic comes into play as all these physical changes tend to only make things get better in every possible way.

Well, if I was manufacturing headphones and I knew the characteristic changes that take place, I might take that into account, and design the phones to perform the best after these changes took place. I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, and I will admit I'm playing devil's advocate. But if you're going to claim something as true, you might want to be prepared to back it up. I've only claimed that materials behave differently in a mechanical sense after being stressed & fatigued. I am not claiming that these effects occur to a level that they are audible in headphone use. That they decidedly DON'T occur is a claim that you might want to back up if you are going to state it.

Edit: I wasn't trying to single you out, and in fact, I don't even know who in this thread made that claim explicitly (if anyone.) But the burden's on them to convince the burn-in believers that it doesn't occur

 

[scompton]

I doubt it's possible to prove to true believers of burn in that it doesn't exist. It would be easier for believers to prove to non believers by showing some measurement that shows it.

I doubt that stress and fatigue effects headphones unless you are playing them at extremely high levels. Levels that you wouldn't be able to listen too with them on your ears. There's not that much movement in the drivers of headphones. My bet is that you'd have a hard time seeing any movement with your naked eye. The membrane of orthos are sandwiched between magnets with no visible space between them, yet they can be played at instant hearing damaging levels.

 

[terriblepaulz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdr529 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think the magic comes into play as all these physical changes tend to only make things get better in every possible way.

Give that head-fi'er a kewpie doll.

 

[Iniamyen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by scompton /img/forum/go_quote.gif I doubt it's possible to prove to true believers of burn in that it doesn't exist. It would be easier for believers to prove to non believers by showing some measurement that shows it. I doubt that stress and fatigue effects headphones unless you are playing them at extremely high levels. Levels that you wouldn't be able to listen too with them on your ears. There's not that much movement in the drivers of headphones. My bet is that you'd have a hard time seeing any movement with your naked eye. The membrane of orthos are sandwiched between magnets with no visible space between them, yet they can be played at instant hearing damaging levels.

That's a good argument, but of course some users (and even some manufacturers, Sennheiser for one I think) recommend doing just that - playing noise through the headphones at presumably damaging-to-the-ears levels to "burn them in"...

I don't know which is easier to prove, but IMO the burden of proof is on whoever is trying to convince others. For right now I'm happy not knowing

 

[bdr529]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iniamyen /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's a good argument, but of course some users (and even some manufacturers, Sennheiser for one I think) recommend doing just that - playing noise through the headphones at presumably damaging-to-the-ears levels to "burn them in"... I don't know which is easier to prove, but IMO the burden of proof is on whoever is trying to convince others. For right now I'm happy not knowing

My none of my headphones came with instructions to burn in; Senn, Denon, or Audio Tech. Did Senn come out and say this at some point? I have read many posts saying AKG denies the effects of burn in, but I don't know their credibility.

 

[Iniamyen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdr529 /img/forum/go_quote.gif My none of my headphones came with instructions to burn in; Senn, Denon, or Audio Tech. Did Senn come out and say this at some point? I have read many posts saying AKG denies the effects of burn in, but I don't know their credibility.

I seem to remember getting a separate paper slip of some kind when I bought both pairs of my phones with that info, but I can't seem to find anything on Sennheiser's website, which may mean it doesn't exist. Still, you can find plenty of reputable sources (just Google "<headphone model> burn-in") saying that it happens. I think it partly also has to do with how much burn-in or stress testing is done to each phone at the factory before they ship it. Maybe the difference is just between how much of this each manufacturer does, or even the same manufacturer for different headphone models.

 

[bdr529]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iniamyen /img/forum/go_quote.gif I seem to remember getting a separate paper slip of some kind when I bought both pairs of my phones with that info, but I can't seem to find anything on Sennheiser's website, which may mean it doesn't exist. Still, you can find plenty of reputable sources (just Google "<headphone model> burn-in") saying that it happens. I think it partly also has to do with how much burn-in or stress testing is done to each phone at the factory before they ship it. Maybe the difference is just between how much of this each manufacturer does, or even the same manufacturer for different headphone models.

So no manufacturers then, just random, I mean reputable people?