Burn-in myth
Jan 23, 2010 at 3:38 AM Post #76 of 150
Quote:

Originally Posted by MacedonianHero /img/forum/go_quote.gif
It's what killed the cat!

Curiosity...not headphone burn in!
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Burn-in curiosity killed the audiophile
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Jan 23, 2010 at 3:49 AM Post #77 of 150
Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif
What you think burn-in is contradicts what chinesewiki's links suggest. I was wondering if you had anything to say about that.


I've seen these links before and am a long time member of HA.

Where does it contadict what I said exactly?

There's no evidence in a test with such poor resolution to suggest that the first few movements of the speakers result in the most burn-in. I probably worded the "first few minutes" remark poorly, as I was referring to per flex of the diaphragm, not the absolute threshold of burn-in occurs in the fews few minutes (although a lot of companies actually burn-in their drivers before they ship them, so it wouldn't surprise me if a few minutes was indeed the case for these manufacturers).

I also believe that these speakers were burnt in using low frequency test tones (15 and 20hz I believe are quoted), which whilst they will produce large movement of the speaker, I am not sure they will be as effective as music (as the motions are slow and large, rather than fast and large). But I dunno, there's no scientific evidence I've seen that suggests the "most effective method of burnin"

There are also various anomalies that suggest the test was not completely accurate, R1 for example does not follow a pattern in one direction. But I don't care too much about that.

I'd go and attempt to force the data (which is insufficient) onto a logarithmic graph just to appease myself, but frankly I don't give a damn about burn-in, despite my belief in it. I'm too busy listening to music. I'd like you to provide proof that you have indeed verified that the burn-in process is not logarithmic (you can use that data if you like) before you "call me out" on something from a single source with poor resolution.

This is not the sound science forum. This is a headphone forum that people use to decide what headphones to buy, or discuss headphones that they use to listen to music. Burn-in has no place on this forum IMHO other than a quick mention that some people like to do it (I believe there is a sticky about it).

Let's not even get into the difference in surface area, and the volume of air being moved.


How 'burnt-in' do you think the topic of burn-in is, anyway?
 
Jan 23, 2010 at 4:01 AM Post #79 of 150
Quote:

Originally Posted by pdupiano /img/forum/go_quote.gif
3min 13 seconds

Well if you do reject the testing methodology then... the quest continues to disprove head-phone burn in... although we all know it exists.


Watch the end of the video from about 7 minutes on. He comes to no conclusion that supports burn-in. He says it's possible, audibly questionable, but no evidence to support it and if it does happen it is extremely slight. But again, he's focusing primarily on frequency response changes. And that's not where burn-in changes are going to be.

I'm not discounting burn-in. I consider headphone burn-in possible and plausible. I heard changes in my D2000 in the bass getting tighter and less bloomy over the first handful of hours. No changes after that. So yes, the changes I believe I heard would be burn-in. Happened fairly quickly. No 40+ or 100+ hour thing.
 
Jan 23, 2010 at 4:19 AM Post #80 of 150
Wow I have been on head fi for under a week and this topic of discussion is absolutely stupid. If you believe in burn in then burn away and if you dont then happy listening straight out of the box.

STOP THE PETTY BICKERING AND DISCUSS SOMETHING WORTH OUR WHILE!


(threads like this leave bad impressions on new head fiers like me IMO)
 
Jan 23, 2010 at 4:20 AM Post #82 of 150
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRookie52 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Wow I have been on head fi for under a week and this topic of discussion is absolutely stupid. If you believe in burn in then burn away and if you dont then happy listening straight out of the box.

STOP THE PETTY BICKERING AND DISCUSS SOMETHING WORTH OUR WHILE!


(threads like this leave bad impressions on new head fiers like me IMO)


Welcome to head-fi.
 
Jan 23, 2010 at 4:27 AM Post #83 of 150
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrGreen /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Welcome to head-fi.


Where we fuss over minutia and sound differences that may or may not be. That's audiophile. If that scares off the nooobs then they're not ready yet for head-fi.
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Jan 23, 2010 at 4:35 AM Post #84 of 150
Funny, but this video seems to proove definitively that there IS burn in. And Im not just talking about the dude's bong.

In the test he does acknowledge that there are deviations of 1 db or so in each octave. And one db being the smallest audible change in music to the human ear, combine this audible change over the entire frequency spectrum and you have quite a cummulative variation.

Think for a second how minute the differences in attack, decay, color, clarity, lushness so on and so forth must be from the standpoint of spectrum analysis. I would suggest that there are likely dozens of sq characteristics we all pay mucho $$$ for that are completely invisible to the shallow observations of a spectrum analyzer or RTA. The fact that there are visible variations at all in the author's test clearly demonstrates that there are major changes going on before and after burn in.

In the end, no matter what the test is, the proof to the listener is in the pudding of the observed sound quality. If it sounds better to that person after burn in, then it cannot be argued that it IS, in fact, a better experience for that person. It becomes irrelevant whether or not it is all "in his/her head"

You can try and scientifically explain that the Zen master is simply inducing a mental state of hightened consciousness through the power of the mind and thus experiences a moment of bliss due to the resulting chemical response and not because there is a god or he has become spiritually enlightened. Either way, the Zen master still feels damn good and you are left to painfully put ointment on your hemroids. IOW, what difference does it make whether you are making it up? I only wish I could make things up that good?

If I'm doing that with my headphones after burn in, then I'm super impressed with my personal power of self persuasion.

But, if that's to cryptic for you, then lets get literal...Im an audiophiling person, you know that, and there are consiquences to contradicting the heart of an audiophile's conclusions, you've just experienced one of them.
 
Jan 23, 2010 at 4:35 AM Post #85 of 150
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mochan /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Anecdotally this is unlikely. Lots of people have auditioned well-worn test units or well-loved cans from there friends, and end up buying a new pair. The new pair sounds nothing like what they auditioned, then they burn them in for a week and viola there is the coveted sound of their memories!


Oh, and clergymen should be run out of business, I believe they are useless.


No. You also have to consider the production variations between headphones of the same model. They all sound slightly different. Production variation does not support burn in.

Further, the human brain does a lot of remarkable things with the input it receives. Optical illusions, for one. Have you ever found the blind spots in your eyes? It's pretty remarkable how the brain fills in the missing areas. Have you ever changed your mind as to whether you like a song or maybe a piece of art? Did that change in opinion occur because the song or painting changed?

If you want to demonstrate a difference of a physical change, you must control what the brain does. That can be done with DBT, test equipment, etc. If differences don't show up there, the difference is in your head.

If you reject the possibility that your brain is playing tricks, you are being intellectually dishonest. You have to consider all possibilities, not just the ones you want to believe.

Clergy? I'd tell you exactly what I think, but religious discussion is not allowed here.
 
Jan 23, 2010 at 4:44 AM Post #86 of 150
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monkey /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The burn-in/cable nonsense is ruining this forum. Pro or con, I don't care, but the debates are endlessly boring and find their way into way too many threads. People used to post useful stuff here. Worse, we have all of these "experts" spouting their bs and leading others astray. I implore the powers that be to relegate these discussions to the appropriate subforums (e.g., sound science, cables etc., nonsense).


Quote:

Originally Posted by dasmb /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Burn in just does not exist. I burnt in my new Audio Technicas for 24 hours and they sound much worse. At 450º -- am I doing it wrong?


If you have good enough system to tell you the difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRookie52 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Wow I have been on head fi for under a week and this topic of discussion is absolutely stupid. If you believe in burn in then burn away and if you dont then happy listening straight out of the box.

STOP THE PETTY BICKERING AND DISCUSS SOMETHING WORTH OUR WHILE!


(threads like this leave bad impressions on new head fiers like me IMO)


Exactly.

I am getting pissed out. For all of you don't have enough experience or good enough system to tell the difference, stop miss leading other people!!
angry_face.gif


As I said even cellphone headset, you can tell burn-in improve the SQ!
 
Jan 23, 2010 at 5:07 AM Post #87 of 150
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monkey /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Yes; they belong in sound science or elsewhere.



That's ok, they also can be directed elsewhere.


No one is forcing you to read this thread, and it's uncalled for to continue leaving useless posts about where the topic belongs. These comments do nothing to help this discussion or the forum, so it's posted in the wrong section, so what, let the moderators move it if they want to. I can't stand it when people just complain about a discussion just because they don't agree with it. I'm sure everyone reading this knows that there is not going to be a definitive answer that's going to come from this, but that doesn't mean that the pro's and con's can't be discussed in a polite manner.
 
Jan 23, 2010 at 5:18 AM Post #88 of 150
Not sure if it pertains to headphones, but here is an article by Danny Richie, a respected speaker designer:

Driver Burn-In
Burn-In Myths
 
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