Building a new computer...please help.

[Stephonovich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wallijonn How can you tell which is which? Please tell me more. I got the HighTech 9800 Pro 128/256. Mine overclocks to beyond stock XT levels.

One way is what the GPU cooler looks like. Older ones used gold colored push pins to attach the HSF, whereas the new ones use black plastic ones. Also, the RAM is a tell-tale way.
This article has everything you need to know about modding the Pro to XT. Specifically, this page tells you how to identify an R360 core. BTW, if you happen to have ATI Tool, don't always trust it. Mine told me I have an R360 core, but all the physical evidence is pointing otherwise. Some forums I visited reported that it's not always accurate. Oh yes, a final word of warning... get an aftermarket cooler and RAM heatsinks. This thing runs hot as it is, even worse after modding. I haven't even modded mine yet, and without OC'ing, it's gotten so bad with this heat that if I run UT2K4 for more than 15 minutes or so, it locks up. (I've traced it down to the GPU, everything else is running cool)


Quote:

Originally Posted by wallijonn Regarding sound and CPU utilisation: with today's fast cpus it really doesn't make a difference. Creative drivers are still a pain.

That may be, but if he's a gamer, he might want the ear candy that EAX offers. Creative's drivers are still the only way to get EAX 3 effects.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shulaw05 i'm still unclear on fans. if i go with the above specifications how many fans, and what size, should i get? does the case come with any fans?

I don't know that you're up to any sort of case modding, but I'd highly recommend you get two high quality (Delta is always good) 120mm fans and replace the 80mm intake and exhaust with those. They're quieter, for one, due to a slower rotational speed, they move more air, and it's bragging rights

A friend of mine has a huge Antec case with a 2.8E (Prescotts run hot, remember) in it, and his only cooling other than the stock HSF are two 120mm fans. I have yet to see his CPU get into the 30s. (Celsius) Another option if you don't mind the ghetto look (with a Lian-Li, I'd say no) is to cut a blowhole in the top, drop a 120mm in there (although intake is usually better), and if you already have decent case ventilation, run ducting directly from that intake to the CPU. That's what I did to mine; and I'm soon going to replace the crappy 60mm exhaust fan (which I cut the fan grille away from) with an 80mm. Cheap cases aren't bad if you mod 'em

Anyway, good luck!

(-:Stephonovich

 

[reeseboisse]

Couple of things that I haven't seen mentioned. They aren't 100% percent neccesary, but I promise that you will not regret the decision in the future.

First is buying a dedicated heatsink and fan for the CPU. The retail CPU package does come with one, but it's heatsink is small and made of aluminum, which doesn't do quite as well as copper when dispersing heat, and it uses a fairly dinky little fan.

Second, and related, is thermal paste. Again, the CPU comes with a little bit, but it's a pretty low quality, and a tube of nice Arctic Silver 5 is no more than a few dollars.

These things will make only a negligible difference right now, but later on, when you have a bit more experience and may want to experiment a bit with overclocking and such, it will aid an enormous amount.

All of this is available on www.xoxide.com (and Newegg too, I guess), which I've used before and highly reccomend. They also have an exellent and enormous selection of cases.

 

[Eagle_Driver]

Going back to the motherboard on your original list, the Intel D865PERL:

I have one myself. But the trouble with the D865PERL is that Intel actually sells no fewer than four different retail-boxed versions of that mobo. For the price that you've originally planned to spend, you may be getting the most basic, stripped-down version of that mobo, which lacks onboard RAID, Firewire and LAN altogether. The next step up from the basic model adds onboard 10/100 LAN. The version that I am using has onboard SATA RAID, Firewire and 10/100 LAN (I would have liked Gigabit LAN onboard, but it costs an extra $30 over the one I purchased).

As for the D875PBZ, it is definitely overpriced for the relatively sparse features that it offers. All retail-boxed and bulk versions of the D875PBZ lack onboard audio and Firewire - but include onboard SATA RAID and Gigabit LAN. (A version of the D875PBZ with onboard audio does exist - but that version is only sold directly to system OEMs.)

And speaking of overclocking features on both Intel boards, they're minimal. Sure, you can adjust RAM timings from 2-2-2-5 to 3-4-4-8. (The RAM that I'm using is rated at 2-3-2-6.) But FSB overclocking is limited to +4% maximum from the stock FSB of a given CPU - in fact, for a 2.8C, you can only overclock up to 2.91GHz (832MHz/208DDR FSB). And there is no provision at all whatsoever for any voltage tweaking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shulaw05 Motherboard: Intel "D865PERLL" i865PE Chipset Motherboard for Intel Socket 478 CPU -RETAIL Item# N82E16813121184

I've just looked at that model number again, and I've discovered that you'd be getting the exact same mobo, with the exact same onboard features, as the one that I have. This means that you'll be getting RAID 0/1 support on the Serial ATA (SATA) channels (thanks to its use of the ICH5R - cheaper versions of the D865PERL use the plain ICH5), as well as onboard Firewire (IEEE 1394a) and onboard Intel PRO/100EZ 10/100 LAN. (Sure, you'll be getting the same onboard features for less $$$ if you go for an Abit IS-7. But I don't want all that extra BIOS tweakability potentially f'ing up my system's stability and reliability, and Intel has better compatibility and stability going for it.)
The other three versions of the D865PERL motherboard are the plain D865PERL (which has onboard audio but no onboard RAID, Firewire or LAN), the D865PERLX (which adds onboard 10/100 LAN) and the D865PERLK (which has all the features of the D865PERLL, with onboard SATA RAID and Firewire, but adds onboard Intel PRO/1000CT Gigabit LAN in place of the 10/100 LAN).

As for your choice of the Asus P4P800-E Deluxe, note well that its onboard Gigabit LAN is actually a Marvell 8001 controller that's connected to the slow, overcrowded 32-bit/33MHz PCI bus. That alone will eat up PCI bandwidth and PCI resources - but it's a lot cheaper than Intel's Gigabit solution. The Intel PRO/1000CT controller communicates directly to the i865PE/i875P's Northbridge, eliminating the resource hogging. But only the Intel-brand motherboards which include onboard Gigabit LAN (the D875PBZ and the most expensive version of the D865PERL) and the Asus P4C800-E Deluxe use that controller - and those motherboards that use the Intel Gigabit LAN are among the most expensive desktop (as opposed to workstation or server) motherboards on the market today.
Furthermore, the Marvell 8001 Gigabit LAN has to share the same 133MB/s PCI bandwidth as the Promise SATA controller chip on the P4P800-E Deluxe (which adds two additional SATA RAID ports and two PATA/133 ports on top of the 865PE's native two SATA ports and two PATA/100 ports). And using the Marvell 8001 Gigabit LAN by itself, if you're using transfer methods that use the entire bandwidth of Gigabit, will just about completely saturate the entire PCI bus bandwidth, slowing down the performance of your entire system if you're also using the Promise SATA controller at the same time.

Too bad Intel still hasn't come up with a Gigabit solution that is compatible with its new PCI Express (PCI-e) based 925X, 915G and 915P chipsets (since those new chipsets lack support for direct Gigabit controller connection to the Northbridge) - but it did the next best thing: It went to Marvell for a new Gigabit chip (8050) that uses the PCI-e bus rather than the regular PCI bus. And so far, it appears that Intel is the only 915/925 motherboard maker that uses that new Marvell controller; other brands of 915/925-based mobos that have onboard Gigabit LAN still use the old, bandwidth- and resource-hogging Marvell 8001 PCI-based controller.

 

[GokieKS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wallijohn How can you tell which is which? Please tell me more. I got the HighTech 9800 Pro 128/256. Mine overclocks to beyond stock XT levels.

The most reliable way to tell if your 9800 PRO has a R360 core is to take off the heatsink, clean off the thermal paste, and look at the core itself.

After my first Visiontek 9800 PRO (that I paid $400 for ><) failed after just a few months, I sent it in for RMA... got the same card back unfixed... sent it in again, and this time, about 5 months later, I got a working card back - and it was a R360 core card (I installed the Arctic Cooling VGA Silencer on it).

Quote:

Originally Posted by reeseboisse First is buying a dedicated heatsink and fan for the CPU. The retail CPU package does come with one, but it's heatsink is small and made of aluminum, which doesn't do quite as well as copper when dispersing heat, and it uses a fairly dinky little fan. Second, and related, is thermal paste. Again, the CPU comes with a little bit, but it's a pretty low quality, and a tube of nice Arctic Silver 5 is no more than a few dollars.

If you're not overclocking, the retail Intel HSF is perfectly fine, assuming you've got decent airflow in the case. You can even do some low-level overclocking with it.

If you do decide on a better HSF, look into Thermalright's products. The SLK-800, SLK-900, and SP-94 are all very high quality heatsinks, and as they don't come with a fan, you have a lot of choice in that regard as well, whether you want extreme performance (so go with, say, a Vantec Tornado) or quietness (in which case a 92mm SilenX fan would probably work well).



On the issue of Intel motherboards:

I have the Abit IC7-G, an i875P motherboard that, at introduction, costed around $230 (the feature-filled 875P boards were all quite expensive back then). Nowadays, you can get it for $135:

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduc...127-152&DEPA=0

At that price, I can recommend it without any hesistation. And the overclocking options on Abit motherboards are quite simply second to none.



Finally, I'll throw out another suggestions... how about an AMD Athlon64-based system?

The Athlon64 2800+ isn't terribly expensive, and the new nForce3 250 based motherboards are excellent. AnandTech, a very highly regarded computing website, chose that combination (a MSI K8N Neo Platinum for the motherboard) in their latest mid-range system guide, which you may find useful:

http://www.anandtech.com/guides/showdoc.aspx?i=2122&p=2

It really depends on your needs though... if gaming is your primary concern, the Athlon would be a better choice. But if you want to try your hand at overclocking, the P4 would be a better choice. Not that you can't OC an A64, but the Northwood cores, as a general rule, have a lot more headroom in that regard.

~KS

 

[Shulaw05]

alright...take 3, i'm getting closer...here is where i stand now:

Case: Either...
1) Lian Li Silver Mid-Tower Case, Model "PC-60" -RETAIL
Item# N82E16811112022 ($95)
2) Cooler Master Praetorian SILVER ALUMINUM MID-TOWER CASE, Model "PAC-T01-E1"
Item# N82E16811119029 ($98)
3) ANTEC Performance Plus Case with 430W Power Supply, Model "PLUS1080AMG" -RETAIL
Item# N82E16811129115 ($112)
4) ENERMAX Milk White ATX Mid Tower Case, Model "CSX656TA-MW" -RETAIL
Item# N82E16811124101 ($55)

For the cases with no psu, i'd get the Antec 430W Power Supply, Model "TRUE430" -RETAIL
Item# N82E16817103908 ($68)
Both the Lian Li and Cooler have 4 fans (2 front, 1 top, 1 back)...would it be worthwhile to upgrade any of those fans, or is 4 80mm fans enough?
The enermax has a front 80mm and 2 back 80mm. i would probably replace all 3 with 120mm.
The Antec looks to have a side 80mm and 2 back 80mm. i would probably replace all 3 with 120mm.
Also, how do you monitor the temperature without a front panel display?

CD/DVD Burners - the same

Hard Drive - the same

Memory - the same

Motherboard:
ABIT "IC7-G MAXII ADVANCE" i875P Chipset Motherboard for Intel Socket 478 CPU -RETAIL
Item# N82E16813127152 ($133) - it is only $21 dollars more than the intel or Asus...and if i decide in a few months to try to overclock i'll the ability to do so.

Eithernet Card:
Encore 10/100Mbps PCI Ethernet Adapter, Model ENL832-TX+
Item# N82E16833180004 ($4) - any card will do, right?

Processor:
Intel Pentium 4/ 2.8C GHz 800MHz FSB, 512K Cache, Hyper Threading Technology - Retail
Item# N82E16819116161 ($179) - sticking with intel...

Since i don't plan to overclock immediately i'll hold of on the heatsinks and paste...i can order them in a few months if i decide to go that way. I'm pretty much there, i'm just having the most trouble deciding on a case.

 

[wallijonn]

Stephonovich,

I bought the HighTech just because it came with the Artic Cooling heatsink. The heatsink can be bought for ~$20. I have no problem giving up the first PCI slot. It runs 412/365 no problem. That was a good article, though. There's just no way that I will be removing the heatsinks on the gpu and mem, though.


reeseboisse,

The Intel stock heatsinks aren't all that bad. If you get a 2.4 and then slap on a 3.4 heatsink on it, it should work fine. I of course would just as soon get a different heatsink and put on a 80mm fan adapter on it. I only wish that the new ThermalRight XP-120 heatsink would fit my PBZ. dag. I'd rather just push more aire using 120mm fans and a ThermalRight XP-120 with a panaflo.

A 120mm fan blowing on the cpu. yeah, baby. I'd probably opt for the 69cfm panaflo.
http://heatsinkfactory.com/cgi-bin/H...talogno=HS-004

Did you read the link on thermal paste?


Eagle_Driver,

I'm just glad that I didn't go with the 865PERL. I've always liked dual channel and PAT. The $99 875PBZ is a bargain seeing as the Northwood is still king in the 478. I think the 3.6 Prescott is not available in the 478. Which means the 3.4 Northwood is the fastest proc for the 478. August 22 all Intel prices will drop. I may even sell my 3.0C and get the 3.4C then as it will probably go for about $350 instead of $415. I can't see myself paying $175 for an ASUS PC800-E. What's the lowest street price for the P4P800-D? $110?

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/Produc...=B&Brand=INTEL
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/Produc...y=B&Brand=ASUS

I'd rather just push more aire using 120mm fans and a ThermalRight XP-120 with a panaflo.

A 120mm fan blowing on the cpu. yeah, baby. I'd probably opt for the 69cfm panaflo.
http://heatsinkfactory.com/cgi-bin/H...talogno=HS-004

 

[GokieKS]

The IC7-G has built-in gigabit ethernet using Intel's CSA (not using the PCI bus), so there's really no need to buy another NIC unless you need dual ethernet connections for some reason.

I'm a big fan of CoolerMaster (and SilverStone, since they were founded by ex-CM case division guys) cases, and I can vouch for their quality (better than Lian Li, IMO).

4 80mm fans, with the usual arrangement of 2 intake and 2 exhaust, will be more than sufficient for a normal computer - even overclocking will be fine. (My CoolerMaster WaveMaster has 2 intake fans that're partially blocked by the "bar" in the front, and only 1 exhaust).

For temperature monitoring, you can either use the program that comes with your motherboard (I forget what the one that the Abit boards come with is called) or Motherboard Monitor (MBM) 5, which you can find at http://mbm.livewiredev.com/ . Development has stopped on the program, which means it may have problems with future motherboards, but for your purposes, it'll do.

I need to warn you on one thing if you're using an Abit motherboard though: the temperatures reported are absolutely meaningless. The temperatures aren't so much tested for as they are calculated - and tests have shown that Abit motherboards can report them anywhere from 5 to 15 degrees Celcius higher than other boards. One test conducted using an Abit board and an ASUS board, compared with using a thermal probe, found that the numbers Abit reported was 13 degrees high on average, and the Asus' 3 degrees low.

Quite simply, if it's stable (running prime95 for 24 hours straight is generally accepted as a way to make sure a system is COMPLETELY stable), don't worry about the temperatures. My 2.4C running at 3.0 (my northbridge fan is starting to make annoying sounds, and I haven't replaced it yet, so I unplugged it and scaled back from my normal overclock of 3.3GHz), and at full load, the motherboard will report something like 75 degrees C, but it's completely stable. So don't worry about it.

~KS

 

[SumB]

If this system is to be used for gaming you need an Audigy 2, there's no two ways about it.

The Springdale is a mediocre performer and a portion of your processor's power is going to go to waste on it. You'd get better bang for your buck as well as performance from an Nforce2 Ultra/AMD Barton rig than than with the crippled D865.

 

[GokieKS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SumB The Springdale is a mediocre performer and a portion of your processor's power is going to go to waste on it. You'd get better bang for your buck as well as performance from an Nforce2 Ultra/AMD Barton rig than than with the crippled D865.

The "crippled" 865PE is a mediocre performer? You've gotta be kidding. The 865PE/875P is still the best Intel chipset on the market, and though it's arguable that the A64s are better gaming choices, the P4Cs are better choices than the AXPs, (the Mobile AXPs with their huge OCing potential excluded). Bang for the buck, yes, the AXPs are still the best on the market. But simply from a performance POV, they don't hold up.

Not to mention most of the 865PE boards you find from major-name motherboard manufacturers have "PAT-like features", whatever they may be called, anyway.

~KS

 

[SumB]

The D865 gets killed by the Canterwood and Nforce2.

http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NDc1LDU=

 

[GokieKS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SumB The D865 gets killed by the Canterwood and Nforce2. http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NDc1LDU=

The Intel brand board does, but a 865PE board with the "PAT-like features" will have miniscule performance differences compared to an 875P board, and we've already convinced him not to get the Intel board:

http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NDgwLDU=

The IS7-G, a 865PE board, actually outperforms the 875P board, the IC7-G, at times - the choice between a 865PE board and a 875P one really comes down to features - the 875P boards tend to be "high-end" ones with CSA GbE, more RAID options, etc.

~KS

 

[wallijonn]

Shulaw05,

Why the IC7-Max 2 over the Max3? Is the Max2 Northwood only but still having the same features of the Max3?

There's two things I do not like about the IC7:
1] The capacitor right in front of the agp slot. But at least there is no lock down lever to get in the way.
2] the cpu socket uses a metal lever and it is horizontal instead of vertical. Some versions use a plastic lever, though.

I love the offset ide connectors, but you need the right case to make them work for you. The SATA connectors, like any mobo is subjective. But they seem to be in the perfect places on the IC7.

forums: (read to see possible problems, revs, etc)
http://www.abxzone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55636
http://forums.pcper.com/forumdisplay.php?f=63

some really close pics:
http://www.abxzone.com/forums/showth...1&page=2&pp=15
more pics:
http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NTA5

 

[GokieKS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wallijonn Shulaw05, Why the IC7-Max 2 over the Max3? Is the Max2 Northwood only but still having the same features of the Max3? There's two things I do not like about the IC7: 1] The capacitor right in front of the agp slot. But at least there is no lock down lever to get in the way. 2] the cpu socket uses a metal lever and it is horizontal instead of vertical. Some versions use a plastic lever, though. I love the offset ide connectors, but you need the right case to make them work for you. The SATA connectors, like any mobo is subjective. But they seem to be in the perfect places on the IC7. forums: (read to see possible problems, revs, etc) http://www.abxzone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55636 http://forums.pcper.com/forumdisplay.php?f=63 some really close pics: http://www.abxzone.com/forums/showth...1&page=2&pp=15 more pics: http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NTA5

The IC7-G is a bit cheaper, and the OTES (the shroud that covers a good portion of the board) makes installing some oversized heatsinks a bit of a pain, not to mention the fan adds more noise.

The IC7-MAX3 is quite possibly the best overclocking board on the market, and some interesting features (like SecureIDE), but for his purposes, it's overkill.

You're right about the rotated and edge mounted IDE connectors... on some cases, you'll need longer cables to reach the the top drive bays.

~KS

 

[doctorjuggles]

I'll throw some more weight behind the IC7, I've got one and they're excellent.

HOWEVER, I must point out that their BIOS temp measuring calcs have known problems, the CPU temperature always reads way too high.
Abit claim it's because they measure core temperature while others measure surface temperature. Either way, you're going to get high reading when you check the temps on a loaded system. I don't trust anything it says. My BIOS hasn't been flashed lately, there may be some firmware fixes, but I doubt it, users have been complaining to them for ages.

Still, if that's the only thing I have to complain about, they're doing something right.
Piece of cake to overclock with, they run so smoothly it's like child's play.

 

[wallijonn]

SumB,

I believe the nForce2 chips had double sided mem problems. I also believe that there were some audio related problems.

I always take synthetic benchmarks with a grain of salt. When it comes to Sandra I look at mem throughput and floating point numbers. In this case a dual channel mem setup should beat any single channel mem setup (nForce2). When it comes to games most will pair up pretty evenly; some going to AmD, some going to Intel. It isn't even a race between OpenGL and DX, it could just be a game using a QuakeIII engie versus any other type of engine.

Shulaw05,

The IC7-Max has problems with the mem voltages over 2.8v. Have you considered the DFI Lan Party line of boards? Yeah, you want the version 2 and above. I hear the Abit IC7-G is even better than the Max3. ~$150.

You can't really go wrong choosing between the Abit IC7-G, DFI Pro875B rev B LanParty or the Asus PC800-E. They are all great boards. I of course only do dual channel, and dual channel should have all 4 mem slots filled. You will get less performance with a i865 and all 4 mem slots filled (about -25%).

If you are going to overclock, you may as well look for a board that can lock the agp/pci buses. If you overclock and it throws your SATA clock off you will probably end up cooking the hard drives. What good is it then? http://www.digital-daily.com/motherb...ty/index05.htm

certain mobos lose PAT when they are overclocked. Asus may have fixed their PAT problem by now. DFI 875ProB uses HighPoint Raid controllers instead of the Silicon Image Raid Controllers on the LANPARTY 865PE rev. B. The DFI Infinity series come out cheaper.

It's a great time to be rebuilding a PC.

If you can wait until August 22 prices should drop on cpus and vidcards. Just keep reading all the reviews and checking all the forums for problems.

As audiophiles, I would like to know who has mobos with optical outs and s/pdif outs. What do you connect them to? This is what really interests me about the Max3.