[hotdogseller]

When did people start equating "burned in" with better sounding? It's not a ******* leather shoe, shouldn't this purported degradation of the driver produce less accurate sound?

 

[SilentFrequency]

When did people start equating "burned in" with better sounding? It's not a ******* leather shoe, shouldn't this purported degradation of the driver produce less accurate sound?

I hope by your comment you don't burn in your leather shoes by passing a electrical signal through them!

 

[ieffsmale]

Yep, I've thought this exact thing for years - the difference in how a piece of equipment or cable sounds over time, all other things being equal, can and often is at least partly a result of the listener gradually getting accustomed to that piece while the memory of the piece that it replaces gradually fades over time.
 
Maybe the only way to know for sure is to remember with 100% accuracy my perception of the differences in sound between the units at the moment they were introduced and then again after a period of "burn-in" time. 
 
To my knowledge, the machine that accurately memorializes those perceptions hasn't yet come down the pike. But I certainly have perceived changes in the sound of equipment and cables after they've settled into my system for a while.
 
A couple of important quotes from Tyll's piece:
 
1)  "Have I shown that break-in doesn't exist and is not measurable? No. The slight changes around 9kHz on the CSD plots, and the significant change in IMD products over time do indicate that something is happening, and happening in a way that seems to me to be properly indicative of the things I've heard with break-in effects. I think the nay-sayers need to acknowledge something might be happening here."
 
2)  "So, while headphones change little over time, their ability to deliver pleasure may improve markedly. Easily hearing the differences I've so often heard before 13 out of 15 times in a simple blind test proved to me this is a subtle, but important distinction."
 
In my experience, this applies to both equipment and cables. I couldn't care less if anyone or everyone or not a single one hears exactly what I hear.  I will continue to do the crazy things that I do, and will continue to enjoy the real or imagined changes that I may or may not hear occurring.

 

[abm0]

Buy a pair of cheap Superlux HD668Bs, never-used.
Burn them in with 20 to 20k frequency sweeps for something like 200 hours.
At an interval of your choosing during the process, measure their frequency response with adequate equipment or even just some decent microphone stuck between the cups, even if they don't form a seal around it (and try to get your environment as close to dead-silent as you can).
Compare the measurements.
 
Then talk to me about your final verdict on headphone burn-in and how the changes are mostly inaudible.

 

[castleofargh]

  Buy a pair of cheap Superlux HD668Bs, never-used.
Burn them in with 20 to 20k frequency sweeps for something like 200 hours.
At an interval of your choosing during the process, measure their frequency response with adequate equipment or even just some decent microphone stuck between the cups, even if they don't form a seal around it (and try to get your environment as close to dead-silent as you can).
Compare the measurements.
 
Then talk to me about your final verdict on headphone burn-in and how the changes are mostly inaudible.

1/if you have done so, please share your data.
2/ it is well known that the ear pads on headphones will change over time and affect the signature. so if somebody does some measurements they must be done at the exact same position, and it probably would be best to remove the pads for variation measurement purpose. unless we're saying that the pads are the burn in of headphone? then sure burn in is real it's been proved many times.

 

[abm0]

 
1/if you have done so, please share your data.
2/ it is well known that the ear pads on headphones will change over time and affect the signature. so if somebody does some measurements they must be done at the exact same position, and it probably would be best to remove the pads for variation measurement purpose. unless we're saying that the pads are the burn in of headphone? then sure burn in is real it's been proved many times.

I don't have a good microphone, I just used whatever crap is included in the HTC One M7, plus a brief listen every time I "measured" them (so there was no "getting used to them" effect; it wouldn't have been possible to use them long enough to get used to them anyway, with how bad they were before the burn-in).
 
Forget earpads, forget "getting used to them", forget all that. I set them on the table and let them play reference sounds to burn them in. That's it. Measured them at 51, 115 and 205 hours in and gave them a brief listen each time. That was it. I took some care to avoid lying to myself about any changes that might occur.
 
This is what I got ("measurements" at 0, 51, 115 and 205 hours of burn-in):
 
 
- To "measure" them I played pink noise through them and I set them on the table with my phone set horizontally between the open cups (one corner of the phone sticking into the space of each cup, because the cups form a "V" when you set them on the table)
 
- First two measurements were made with the bottom microphone of the HTC, which drops off hard at 4 kHz. Still, you can clearly see that after the first 51 hours of burn-in the treble at 5 kHz and beyond is more pronounced and also flatter (5k is no longer the only thing "sticking up" and piercing your eardrums)
 
- Last two measurements were made with the top microphone of the HTC, which is pretty flat up to about 12 kHz. Again you can see from the 3rd to the 4th image how the various peaks merge into wider bands of flat response
 
- Measurements were all made at night, with all the neighbors asleep and no audible noise coming from outside. At most there might've been some equipment vibrations(?) being transmitted through the table I had these set on, as can be seen in the spurious lines in the low-mids and bass
 
- Overall I would say that the way these change with burn-in is that they become brighter and flatter, and the flattening is what makes them lose that harsh, piercing sound (from the narrowly exaggerated response around 6-7 kHz). Many reviews say they become less bright, but I think they're confusing the uneven and piercing sound with brightness. Brightness actually increases overall, but because they also become much flatter the sound becomes much more enjoyable.
 
 
I just wish the InnerFidelity guy or someone else with good equipment had done this test with the right headphones - the HD668B - so as to give the burn-in hypothesis every chance to prove itself, rather than choosing expensive high-end headphones that may not burn in much just because of how good they already are coming out of the factory.

 

[Ancipital]

Either I'm losing my mind, or I have been visited by a headphone break-in unicorn. I can't deny it. DANGER, ANECDOTE AHEAD.
 
I recently picked up a pair of HE-400i, which as you'll know, are planar magnetics. I had high hopes of hearing something unusual and pleasant.
 
Right out of the box, the bass was... nonexistent. It wasn't just rolled off or recessed, it was.. an ex-parrot. I had to really strain to discern a bassline at all in most music. After a few hours of messing, however, the bass fairy finally arrived and touched me in places that we're told are private. Now they're splendid, they have really decent bass- not a massively bloated amount, but clear and occasionally with OTT source material, an intimidating amount. This change was noticable the day after unboxing them, with maybe ten hours on the clock. Same source, same DAC/amp, same media.
 
I really don't think that I imagined it, or that I have just learned to listen to them. I initially compared them to a pair of HD25, and some SE215, both of which are famously generous with the low end, I know. I then compared them to my HD650, which have a slight bass bump over the 600s- and the 650s killed the HE-400i.
 
 
Unfortunately, I didn't have time right away to do any sort of half-arsed measuring with a mic in the middle- and I think our measuring head is a lab up north now, so I have no objective measurements to tell me if I have subjectivitis. However, compared to some fairly reliably stodgy candidates for comparison (especially old HD25s that have been in use for years), they have gone from so terribly insipid that I was on the cusp of returning them, to cans which nearly gave me shartings today when watching the new Overwatch short. 
 
So, tell me, doc.. is it bad? Will I ever be able to operate an oscilloscope again? If this is just perceptual shenanigans, then it's more powerful than usual.

 

[abm0]

Ah. The "loosen them up a bit", less-than-24h kind of break-in. Must be a thing with some high-end models, since Zeos also reported this kind of experience with the Stax SR-207.

 

[Ancipital]

 
..I feel like I'm being gently sent-up 

 

[abm0]

I know I wasn't kidding one bit when it came to my 668Bs, and Zeos doesn't sound like he's kidding either on the Stax: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l0EtAF_lEk

 

[Ancipital]

  I know I wasn't kidding one bit when it came to my 668Bs, and Zeos doesn't sound like he's kidding either on the Stax: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l0EtAF_lEk

 
Well, luckily the SR-404 Signatures up the corridor have been in use for some years, so if there is any effect, they're long past it- they just sound lovely, with my Mojo driving the SRM-323 (I think, I'd have to go and look). 
 
That video is quite annoying, looks like he has a Gopro on his head, and he gushes like he can't believe he's in Kansas anymore. I'm glad he's happy, but I fear what will happen if he ever listens to their actual high-end models. Even allowing for diminishing returns, tiny improvements might kill him 

 

[castleofargh]

subjective opinions are subjective, and opinions.
 
and just in case it wasn't said enough already, pads will change in shape, flexibility etc. and that will alter the signature. better fit after some time will most likely improve the seal and increase low end, getting the driver closer to the ear may also change the trebles a great deal...
IMO we should call that "pads vs head: pads lost", but if some want to call that "burn in", go ahead. as long as we can be clear on the meaning I'm ok with it. just try not to pretend like you know it's the driver or the metal or whatever that changed if you have no actual evidence that it's not the pads or your brain. that's really all I'm asking.
 
 
 
 should I talk about burn in for sponges, sofas, beds... ?

 

[Ancipital]

 
 
 should I talk about burn in for sponges, sofas, beds... ?

 
For hard futon pads, hell yes.. When new, it's like sleeping on concrete- when they're "burned in" with a dip for your body shape, they're delightful

 

 

[abm0]

as long as we can be clear on the meaning I'm ok with it. just try not to pretend like you know it's the driver or the metal or whatever that changed if you have no actual evidence that it's not the pads or your brain.

As already stated, I do have the requisite evidence, since I burned them in on the table, not on my head, so there can be no discussion of pads giving in or the brain getting accustomed. Not to mention the little low-tech spectral analyses I did with my phone just to have that extra data. Yet I keep getting these "it must be the pads" comments, like people can't or won't read anything that goes against their preconceptions.

 

[castleofargh]

 

as long as we can be clear on the meaning I'm ok with it. just try not to pretend like you know it's the driver or the metal or whatever that changed if you have no actual evidence that it's not the pads or your brain.

As already stated, I do have the requisite evidence, since I burned them in on the table, not on my head, so there can be no discussion of pads giving in or the brain getting accustomed. Not to mention the little low-tech spectral analyses I did with my phone just to have that extra data. Yet I keep getting these "it must be the pads" comments, like people can't or won't read anything that goes against their preconceptions.

yes I work for the organization trying to remove all evidence that headphone burn in is the cause for climate change. that's why I'm so unfair and focused only on the pads.
 
 I have nothing to gain one way or the other, and I'm just as curious as the next guy. in fact I most likely have tried more stuff than the next guy when it comes to looking for evidence of burn in(but admittedly centered on IEMs as that's my dope). and I'm sure some headphones somewhere change a lot over a small period of time. but that's my opinion, not a fact. because I haven't seen proper experiments demonstrating that. the only reason why I lean on one side of the argument is because the evidence I have up until now tell me that burn in is mostly in people's head, in the way to put the headphone on, and in the pads. for those 3 stuff we have plenty of evidence that they can impact the sound in a very audible way. for the driver "burning in", we don't really collapse under the evidence that the changes are clearly audible. what we have are people confident about their own hearing over such a period of time. and that to me means nothing, not anything. confident audiophiles, I've learned to trust them less than a telemarketer.
so I take the information I know I can trust and I draw my own conclusion. until I'm presented with enough evidence of the contrary, of course I will tend to believe that's how it is(mostly).
 
 
I'm sorry but your test doesn't mean much to me. for it to be relevant I would at least need to know:
-how loud the headphone was compared to ambient noise at the mic's position.
-that you had a secure way to hold both the headphone and the cellphone so that nothing would move at all throughout the entire experiment.
and I'm sure some more knowledgeable people about how to do proper testing could have other questions.
without this I'm inclined to think that you've demonstrated how moving a little bit can have very measurable impact on the signature. and for that we do have a lot of information already and how some headphones have a smaller "sweet spot" than others.
 
anyway, I have a pair of headphones here that are still in their original box, I could try to set up something(after I've finished plenty of other stuff in my todo list). it would be a nightmare to have something I can't approach or touch in my room for several days, and I honestly can't say if I would be able to do it. my house is pretty small and my clumsiness legendary. but still, let's say I do it, and succeed in getting results one way or the other. what would that prove? that my pair acted like measured. nothing more. it wouldn't close the debate, wouldn't prove anybody right or wrong as nobody is making the claim that no headphone will ever change it's signature. and of course not, that would be like claiming that decay and wear don't apply to headphones. ridiculous. so for those who already believed the result, it would be some kind of confirmation. and for those who don't, my clumsiness would explain the result being "wrong". I'm not sure there is something to gain from such an experience. I get overly excited only because I can't stand empty claims, not because I believe there is a definitive answer.
 
also I don't understand what is so bad about the idea that the pads and positioning make most of the actual differences? at least both have been demonstrated to have audible impact. we can claim stuff on those 2 subjects.