Bowers and Wilkins PX8 Wireless Discussion

[Denkmal]

For what it’s worth I listen the px8 with treble at 1.5. On iPad Air and iPhone 14 pro max range 50% to 70%. Sometimes lower and others higher…

I never listened to bathys and if I read all the people comparing them i take 2 conclusion. 1- they must be at very near quality of sound level. 2 - out of the 2 the most preferred px8 (if it’s because of features, design, comfort or sound alone depends on the person). I wish I had a pair to compare… but i Can’t justify the extra 800€ just to Compare when I’m enjoying px8… but it is consuming me because I am a fan of focal sound too…

Well, the PX8 and Bathys are two quite different animals. If you like the "in your face"-sound that has become B&Ws signature, and you dont miss a more circumaural sound (which Bathys does very well for a closed back headphone), then I think the PX8 are very, very hard to beat.
Also I think B&W has a slight upper hand in both design (subjective), comfort (subjective) and overall usability with better volume adjustment etc (objective). But your impression may be different of course.

 

[evhvis]

I seriously see no area of an assumption on my end. Simplification for sake of understanding what I meant? Sure, this thread is quite tricky I noticed. I mentioned that I do swap headphones often and yet, there is always a tuning that feels right among them and one that does not. I think the more You listen to different headphones, for longer periods, ones that You grow to like and respect, the more Your preference changes. Even a bit. Or, opens You up and then You learn what You like in a certain tuning. When You eat ice cream and instantly switch to say salty pickled cucumber You do feel odd at first. Especially with a new taste. I also mentioned that after a few weeks I would probably love px8. We all have burn-in in our heads. It's the path I mentioned not a final locked perception.


And yet when I say so here, it is felt (by some) as an assault on generally loved headphones as that, for some, seems to be an attack on their objectivity, taste, or brand. It's not.

When you have listened to lots of headphones and stereo systems it becomes easier to switch between different it becomes much easier adapt fast to different frequency responses. Most of the time it takes 5-10 minutes to adapt, sometimes less. Going from listening to Focal Elear with Elex pads for a few weeks to B&W P9 is fine for me and those are polar opposites in frequency response.

My needs in a headphone isn't so much in a "neutral" response but more tied to other qualities in how it can bring out nuances in voices, how the instrument is played etc. Neither the PX8 or the Bathys are perfect headphones, both have quite a few issues that I've written about in both threads, but I do enjoy both quite a lot for BT headphones. They can't compete with good wired in my opinion, but for BT they are very good and they complement each other (keeping both).

Do keep in mind that both are closed back with angled drivers so FR measurements are only the truth for that exact position on that exact measuring device. E.g. both the Bathys and the PX8 will change FR based on how you put them on. Further back is darker and further forward gives a brighter sound for me and this applies to both headphones. There are probably also quite a few other changes, but we will not know for sure until someone does a test on individual variance. E.g. rtings.com do measurements on variance with several test persons and some results can be as much as +/- 4db in certain areas. As little as +/- 1db is enough that people can have slightly different experiences and +/- 4db is like 2 different headphones. I haven't seen many variances tests so far for either the PX8 or Bathys.

Open back are generally not that influenced by head shapes, long hair, glasses etc. compared to a closed back so frequency response measurements are more universal there. For closed back the variance measurements are very important in my opinion as they will show if the optimal cherry picked position has a relation to what a lot of people will hear.

 

[Yinsfleur]

So, there's been a lot of debate about px8 lately, but it seems to me very normal and receptive to all points of view on both sides, cuz It's no secret that people have been arguing about the sound of b&w since px and even p9.

Some people like the sound of the b&w, its thick, dense low-mids, and its “real?like" timbre, all in all, the way b&w presents their sound. At the same time, some people hate the sound of the px series（especially px）, thinking it sounds muddy, has unpleasant reverberation, and sounds like a sound coming from a cave, which I can totally understand since I saw similar comments a few years ago.

I am also very sure to tell you that by emphasizing and strengthening the thickness of the mid-low frequency, b&w will inevitably give up some other things. Strange? Is it abnormal? Perhaps it is the real normality of life to not have both, but the things we give up are different.

I also fully understand that some people call the sound of b&w crap, especially for some people who like clear, thin, and transparent sound very much, if you experience b&w headphones (px series/p9) for a short time with some special tracks, you will definitely feel that this thing is not for people to listen to.

But one thing I definitely disagree with is that some people feel that some of the mentioned headphones are more "natural" or “correct” .

So what is natural and correct? Sounds real? Or a balanced measurement result?

I remember very well that the vocals and instruments I heard personally at the Shanghai Symphony Orchestra were obviously closer to the px8 compared to some “natural” headphone mentioned by others. Also, b&w's sound measurements aren't good since px, so there's no point arguing about a fact. The curve is objective, but you can interpret it the way you like it or the way you don't. If anyone remembers some of the discussions of the px back then, the px is very sensitive to the way it is worn, and wearing glasses will completely change its sound. So, I can basically say that there is no perfect measurement here.
(quote: @evhvis "Further back is darker and further forward gives a brighter sound for me". Similarly, the closer the unit is to my ear, the brighter the sound, and the farther away it is, the darker the sound. ）(adjusted by moving the headset back and forth)

No doubt, many people like the sound of px. Even in my opinion, the advantages and disadvantages of px are too obvious, even though I appreciate it a lot of the time, it's hard to recommend it to others. Px7 and Px7s2 have lost a lot of px’s characteristics while improving the shortcomings of px. However, px8 retains the characteristics of px while improving almost all aspects, which is why I give px8 a high evaluation. Px8 sounds really really good as a b&w headphone.

It's not surprising that more people like px8, isn't it even more strange that no one likes a complete upgrade?
And it's not surprising that many people don't like px8, because px8 is still a headphone by b&w.

In my mind, the B&W p7 has a clear good sound and the P9 and px series have a heavy good sound. Therefore, arguing about something with a very specific characteristic is not a good choice, because you will get caught in a never-ending Rashomon. I don't like to discuss a "sound" issue for a long time, because if your purpose is to convince people from completely different situations, different tastes, and different aesthetics to like the same "sound" as you, then your first priority is to let these People are in this situation, this taste, this aesthetic, and even the same parents. Oh, and the same volume, because volume really matters in comparisons.
That's to say, when you've made your point clear, let it go.

My first iem is exk, if you have heard it, you will know that it has almost nothing in common with px8, but I like them both. I like exk in junior high school and px8 in graduate school, and I may in the future like every possible things in every possible situation.

(This's some of my crap I googled translated, so it might look weird. I'm not a native English speaker, so I didn't go into the details of the sound in case the words are misleading.)

 

[nunomeneses]

One parallel question, what you use to clean the pads?

 

[Denkmal]

One parallel question, what you use to clean the pads?

A damp cloth. No chemicals, only water if needed.

 

[ricthaman]

I'v been following this thread for a while now, throughout my search for my new 'throw-in-a-bag' portable ANC set. Very nice to see @Resolve joining in on the discussion; very much appreciated! Also the video @mainguy made was very hepfull in the early stages of my quest!
I'd like to share my view on this, and try to keep it as brief as I can.

Let me start by stating I haven't read every post so some of my comments might have been mentioned somewhere already.
I have listened to the PX8 and Bathys on several occasions (next to each other, ABing).
Furthermore, I enjoy my Radiance every day which used to be my portable setup (with M17) which I need to replace because of the bulk; so that's my perspective where I came from. I will use the ANC set in multiple scenario's such as office, calls, trains, commute, walking in the city or just enjoy music at my desk when I'm too lazy to get my Radiance out.

Naturally, the Bathys caught my attention when it was announced and I rushed to the store to check it out. I was rather underwhelmed: sound was nice and best BT I've heard to that point, but too 'generic' on first impression and ANC was rather pointless. Also, the sales guy was ranting about the DAC function which I found astounding: every BT ANC set has a DAC, and if you used it wired it naturally is using the DAC (a feature many sets have). I missed any special features Focal implemented for the DAC stage; are there any? Coming home, listening to the Radiance, I came to my senses and noticed the Bathys was rather good for what it was but not at the level of my Radiance.

Then the PX8 came out. I picked a store that had both in stock and went for a session. Interesting experience: I thought the Bathys sounded more open and had a tad more detail, but te PX8 grabbed me more and made me wanna sing and dance. On older rock, or live recordings of rock/metal the Bathys was 'grander' but the PX8 was more 'fun' and 'toe-tapping' albeit with a bit less resolution. I did quite some back-and forth, all on BT with my iPhone, and it was a toss-up to me really.
I did some more demo's with both in the weeks after that; tried to fall in love with the Bathys but the PX8 kept stealing my heart.

So in the end, other factors came into play next to SQ to make my final decision and go with PX8:

• I think the build-quality of the B&W is better: the Bathys feels too flimsy for an 800 euro set. The PX8 just feels much more luxurious and sturdy which is important to me as I will take them everywhere. The Bathys headband and joke design just isn't as great as the PX8, apart from the fact that the PX8 is a bit more compact. Also, and this is nitpicking I admit, but the Bathys used a bit to much plastic (side, buttons) and the leather doesn't feel as nice to me.
• The ANC on the PX8 is better to my ears. Tested this on multiple occasions, next to each other, in a crowded store. Easy win for PX8 (nowhere near APM or XM5 though not as far off as one would expect). Transparency mode on Bathys was better; more open feeling but on the PX8 it is serviceable enough.
• The SQ was more consistent on PX8; Whether on Macbook, android device with APT-X or iphone/ipad the PX8 sounded generally the same every single time. Bathys was a bit more differentiated, and generally lost some resolution and detail on iOS devices compared to APT-X which is a dealbreaker for me as a high-end BT set needs to service everybody just as well in my opinion.
• Lastly, I find everybody keeps mentioning the M-Shaped driver in the Bathys is the one used in the Celestee and such, which in fact is not true. I believe it was in the excellent video Resolve made (I may be wrong here) on the Bathys where they explain they had to modify the driver for use in the Bathys, and as can be seen in this thread in pictures by another user of the cups inside, it misses the specific design to reduce standing waves and such. To me, the cup design and the driver go hand-in-hand so comparing Bathys to Celestee and others purely on components and design this, to me, is a non argument. I'm not saying it's a bad or inferiour designed headphone, I actually admire their decision to use the M-Shaped driver and adapt it. I do feel however, that sometimes the fact that B&W developed a carbon cone (and driver system to go with it) get's lost in the mix a bit. My point being: they're both revolutionary driver systems for the BT ANC market and in that sense on the same level to me.

This turned out to be a longer post than I anticipated, but to conclude: I think both are awesome BT ANC sets and will set the world of BT ANC cans on fire (of which this thread is proof haha) but for the use case of a BT ANC set, as I see it, I find the PX8 the better complete package. Sure, I have a Radiance to fall back on. So if you need one can to do it all, then Bathys has the better proposition.

I sincerely hope this makes sense to all of you, and I do wish everybody all the fun in the world with their BT ANC set of choice: what a wonderful time to be in this hobby! I'm already wondering what the next high-end BT ANC set is going to be.

Cheers!

*edits for spelling errors

 

[Soundizer]

I'v been following this thread for a while now, throughout my search for my new 'throw-in-a-bag' portable ANC set. Very nice to see @Resolve joining in on the discussion; very much appreciated! Also the video @mainguy made was very hepfull in the early stages of my quest!
I'd like to share my view on this, and try to keep it as brief as I can.

Let me start by stating I haven't read every post so some of my comments might have been mentioned somewhere already.
I have listened to the PX8 and Bathys on several occasions (next to each other, ABing).
Furthermore, I enjoy my Radiance every day which used to be my portable setup (with M17) which I need to replace because of the bulk; so that's my perspective where I came from. I will use the ANC set in multiple scenario's such as office, calls, trains, commute, walking in the city or just enjoy music at my desk when I'm too lazy to get my Radiance out.

Naturally, the Bathys caught my attention when it was announced and I rushed to the store to check it out. I was rather underwhelmed: sound was nice and best BT I've heard to that point, but too 'generic' on first impression and ANC was rather pointless. Also, the sales guy was ranting about the DAC function which I found astounding: every BT ANC set has a DAC, and if you used it wired it naturally is using the DAC (a feature many sets have). I missed any special features Focal implemented for the DAC stage; are there any? Coming home, listening to the Radiance, I came to my senses and noticed the Bathys was rather good for what it was but not at the level of my Radiance.

Then the PX8 came out. I picked a store that had both in stock and went for a session. Interesting experience: I thought the Bathys sounded more open and had a tad more detail, but te PX8 grabbed me more and made me wanna sing and dance. On older rock, or live recordings of rock/metal the Bathys was 'grander' but the PX8 was more 'fun' and 'toe-tapping' albeit with a bit less resolution. I did quite some back-and forth, all on BT with my iPhone, and it was a toss-up to me really.
I did some more demo's with both in the weeks after that; tried to fall in love with the Bathys but the PX8 kept stealing my heart.

So in the end, other factors came into play next to SQ to make my final decision and go with PX8:

• I think the build-quality of the B&W is better: the Bathys feels too flimsy for an 800 euro set. The PX8 just feels much more luxurious and sturdy which is important to me as I will take them everywhere. The Bathys headband and joke design just isn't as great as the PX8, apart from the fact that the PX8 is a bit more compact. Also, and this is nitpicking I admit, but the Bathys used a bit to much plastic (side, buttons) and the leather doesn't feel as nice to me.
• The ANC on the PX8 is better to my ears. Tested this on multiple occasions, next to each other, in a crowded store. Easy win for PX8 (nowhere near APM or XM5 though not as far off as one would expect). Transparency mode on Bathys was better; more open feeling but on the PX8 it is serviceable enough.
• The SQ was more consistent on PX8; Whether on Macbook, android device with APT-X or iphone/ipad the PX8 sounded generally the same every single time. Bathys was a bit more differentiated, and generally lost some resolution and detail on iOS devices compared to APT-X which is a dealbreaker for me as a high-end BT set needs to service everybody just as well in my opinion.
• Lastly, I find everybody keeps mentioning the M-Shaped driver in the Bathys is the one used in the Celestee and such, which in fact is not true. I believe it was in the excellent video Resolve made (I may be wrong here) on the Bathys where they explain they had to modify the driver for use in the Bathys, and as can be seen in this thread in pictures by another user of the cups inside, it misses the specific design to reduce standing waves and such. To me, the cup design and the driver go hand-in-hand so comparing Bathys to Celestee and others purely on components and design this, to me, is a non argument. I'm not saying it's a bad or inferiour designed headphone, I actually admire their decision to use the M-Shaped driver and adapt it. I do feel however, that sometimes the fact that B&W developed a carbon cone (and driver system to go with it) get's lost in the mix a bit. My point being: they're both revolutionary driver systems for the BT ANC market and in that sense on the same level to me.

This turned out to be a longer post than I anticipated, but to conclude: I think both are awesome BT ANC sets and will set the world of BT ANC cans on fire (of which this thread is proof haha) but for the use case of a BT ANC set, as I see it, I find the PX8 the better complete package. Sure, I have a Radiance to fall back on. So if you need one can to do it all, then Bathys has the better proposition.

I sincerely hope this makes sense to all of you, and I do wish everybody all the fun in the world with their BT ANC set of choice: what a wonderful time to be in this hobby! I'm already wondering what the next high-end BT ANC set is going to be.

Cheers!

*edits for spelling errors

Hello rickthaman for comprehensive and engaging post.

On your point about consistency of sound depending on device codec I agree the Bathys needs the right codec.

I pair it directly on my iPad Pro which obviously utilises AAC. Then when I connect my Creative BTW4 (AptX Adaptive) dongle into iPad Pro it is noticeably better. I know it is transmitting AptX Adaptive with the dongle because it has a purple light showing and on my iPhone the Focal App shows AptX Adaptive.

However the fact that you can tell the difference here is credit to Bathys because it resolves enough to reveal the difference where as maybe this gets lost in PX8. Possible reason.

You made a point in Summary “if you need one can do it all, then Bathys”.
Do you mean if you have only Bathys budget for 1 device as bluetooth and wired, so you will not be buying another wired headphones and dac/amp?

 

[Denkmal]

However the fact that you can tell the difference here is credit to Bathys because it resolves enough to reveal the difference where as maybe this gets lost in PX8.

Is this really a feature, that Bathys doesnt play nice on AAC?

 

[angelom]

I pair it directly on my iPad Pro which obviously utilises AAC. Then when I connect my Creative BTW4 (AptX Adaptive) dongle into iPad Pro it is noticeably better. I know it is transmitting AptX Adaptive with the dongle because it has a purple light showing and on my iPhone the Focal App shows AptX Adaptive.

However the fact that you can tell the difference here is credit to Bathys because it resolves enough to reveal the difference where as maybe this gets lost in PX8. Possible reason.

I really don't know if this is true, so my comment is ONLY speculation because I never testing Bathys or px8 with aptx/aptx adaptive, but is possible too that maybe the px8 is having a better implementation of AAC codec. With the financial resources of b&w I imagine they optimising their headphones in the best way for the codecs they're offering.

 

[jthomp72]

I really don't know if this is true, so my comment is ONLY speculation because I never testing Bathys or px8 with aptx/aptx adaptive, but is possible too that maybe the px8 is having a better implementation of AAC codec. With the financial resources of b&w I imagine they optimising their headphones in the best way for the codecs they're offering.

The Bathys If you’re feeding it lossless AAC sounds fine. Within the same ballpark as AptX HD. AptX HD is better sure but it’s not like night and day.

 

[Denkmal]

The Bathys If you’re feeding it lossless AAC sounds fine. Within the same ballpark as AptX HD. AptX HD is better sure but it’s not like night and day.

Huh?

 

[jthomp72]

Huh?

Apple Music has “lossless” audio that is according to them…is this quality

 

[angelom]

The Bathys If you’re feeding it lossless AAC sounds fine. Within the same ballpark as AptX HD. AptX HD is better sure but it’s not like night and day.

Apple Music has “lossless” audio that is according to them…is this quality

AAC is lossy, ALAC is lossless. ALAC isn't possible in BT today.

 

[jthomp72]

AAC is lossy, ALAC is lossless. ALAC isn't possible in BT today.

Okay let me rephrase to…whatever Apple Music is calling lossless is in the same ballpark as AptX HD wireless on the bathys.

 

[Soundizer]

Is this really a feature, that Bathys doesnt play nice on AAC?

I really don't know if this is true, so my comment is ONLY speculation because I never testing Bathys or px8 with aptx/aptx adaptive, but is possible too that maybe the px8 is having a better implementation of AAC codec. With the financial resources of b&w I imagine they optimising their headphones in the best way for the codecs they're offering.

Actually I didn’t think of that, good point. I know BOSE have special AAC implementation because i worked with there ENGINEERS on a project. They explained it is not off the shelf AAC, but allot of customisation.