[AcademicBarzo]

Thank you AcademicBarzo. Of course, I followed your comments and input as well earlier in the discussion here.

Also appreciate your response to my concerns about sound signature. I don't know where I might audition the MLs locally. I'm in the Sacramento, California area so I'll have to poke around and find them. Or do an audition with return privileges as you suggest. I've ready that the noise cancellation on the MLs isn't that good...but you have countered that here. I thought the B&W PX8 noise cancellation was quite good...almost as good as the Sony XM5.

Yes, I was surprised at the quality of the 5909s ANC. However, the headphones provide a good passive seal, which probably is a large factor in this. I had no complaints about the PX8 ANC.

BTW, I also own the Shure Aonic 50s. Great BT headphones but really poor ANC. The ML 5909 is closer to the Shures in sound signature than the PX8s, but is obviously an improvement on both

The T&A Solitaire headphone is, on paper, the one I'd have gone for, despite the high price, but I just know that the earcup size would end up being a problem for me - I've tried a pair on to confirm that the earcups are a little too small for my ears, but, as with the Dali IO-12s, have deliberately not listened to them.

 

[Jazzophile]

Yes, I was surprised at the quality of the 5909s ANC. However, the headphones provide a good passive seal, which probably is a large factor in this. I had no complaints about the PX8 ANC.

BTW, I also own the Shure Aonic 50s. Great BT headphones but really poor ANC. The ML 5909 is closer to the Shures in sound signature than the PX8s, but is obviously an improvement on both

The T&A headphone is, on paper, the one I'd have gone for, despite the high price, but I just know that the earcup size would end up being a problem for me - I've tried a pair on to confirm that the earcups are a little too small for my ears, but, as with the Dali IO-12s, have deliberately not listened to them.

I too love the Shure Aonic 50. That is a fantastic sounding headphone, and the ANC is sub-par at best. I've not seen anyone else remark about this in any forum or any review, but I wonder if you noticed that the Aonic 50 sounds better using the APTX-HD codec rather than the LDAC codec. The LDAC codec sounds oddly congested and constrained in the bass compared to APTX-HD. I've tested that repeatedly and it's obvious. I'd be very happy with just the Aonic 50 if the ANC was good. It just isn't.

 

[AcademicBarzo]

I too love the Shure Aonic 50. That is a fantastic sounding headphone, and the ANC is sub-par at best. I've not seen anyone else remark about this in any forum or any review, but I wonder if you noticed that the Aonic 50 sounds better using the APTX-HD codec rather than the LDAC codec. The LDAC codec sounds oddly congested and constrained in the bass compared to APTX-HD. I've tested that repeatedly and it's obvious. I'd be very happy with just the Aonic 50 if the ANC was good. It just isn't.

I had, well sort of, only because I paired them in the past with an A&K Kann DAP, which only has AptX-HD. They sounded tighter and punchier. I had put this down to my then Samsung phone's implementation of LDAC.

I'll be interested to see if this plays out the the 5909s. I'm using them with my current phone (Xperia 1V) and have switched to Apt-X adaptive only once, while in a crowded train station, as LDAC on hq mode can be very flaky in such situations. I was listening to a podcast at the time, so noticed no change in sq.

I used to use the Shures for TV listening (as they pair via Aptx to my LG Oled TV), but a lot of my listening now takes place via an Apple TV box and airpods (spatial audio works well for movies and TV shows).

 

[Jazzophile]

I had, well sort of, only because I paired them in the last with an A&K Kann DAP, which only has AptX-HD. They sounded tighter and punchier. I had put this down to my then Samsung phone's implementation of LDAC.

I'll be interested to see if this plays out the the 5909s. I'm using them with my current phone (Xperia 1V) and have switched to Apt-X adaptive only once, while in a crowded train station, as LDAC on hq mode can be very flaky in such situations. I was listening to a podcast at the time, so noticed no change in sq.

I use a Google Pixel 8. Sadly, the Tensor 3 chip that Google uses doesn't offer APTX Adaptive. Only APTX HD or APTX.

I have Sennheiser Momentum 3 in ear buds (TWS), and B&O EQ in ear buds. Both of them are APTX Adaptive capable, but unlike some other cans, they do not step down to APTX HD when using the Pixel 8. I cannot figure out why some cans will step down from APTX Adaptive to APTX HD and others won't. Must be a licensing issue.

The B&W PX8 did step down to APTX HD codec on my Pixel 8.

One of the oddities of not having a Snapdragon chip in my mobile device.

 

[AcademicBarzo]

I use a Google Pixel 8. Sadly, the Tensor 3 chip that Google uses doesn't offer APTX Adaptive. Only APTX HD or APTX.

I have Sennheiser Momentum 3 in ear buds (TWS), and B&O EQ in ear buds. Both of them are APTX Adaptive capable, but unlike some other cans, they do not step down to APTX HD when using the Pixel 8. I cannot figure out why some cans will step down from APTX Adaptive to APTX HD and others won't. Must be a licensing issue.

The B&W PX8 did step down to APTX HD codec on my Pixel 8.

One of the oddities of not having a Snapdragon chip in my mobile device.

Yes. Sony is the last of the flagship phone makers that has Apt-X adaptive codec support and a microSD card (I like having a large collection of music with me, rather than relying on streaming services).

I posted this in another thread, but it is annoying that so many headphones and earbuds come with Apt-X adaptive, yet many phones do not support that format. It's not just Google but also Samsung. Plus, all DAPs that I've seen only do Apt-X HD and, as you say, many earbuds do not scale down from Apt-X adaptive to Apt-X HD (same situation for me with the B&W Pi7 S2s and the A&K Kann - Aptx only). Support of LDAC makes more sense, as an addition, as LDAC is now 'baked in' to Android itself.

So, kudos to ML for being the only high end BT headphone manufacturer to include LDAC support alongside Apt-X HD.

 

[Jazzophile]

Yes. Sony is the last of the flagship phone makers that has Apt-X adaptive codec support and a microSD card.

I posted this in another thread, but it is annoying that so many headphones and earbuds come with Apt-X adaptive, yet many phones do not support that format. It's not just Google but also Samsung. Plus, all DAPs that I've seen only do Apt-X HD and, as you say, many earbuds do not scale down from Apt-X adaptive to Apt-X HD (same situation for me with the B&W Pi7 S2s and the A&K Kann - Aptx only). Support of LDAC makes more sense, as an addition, as LDAC is now 'baked in' to Android itself.

Well said. 100% agree.

 

[AcademicBarzo]

Back on the PX8s, I've so far found the BT headphone journey to be about compromise and I'd settled on the PX8s as providing that best compromise for my own usage cases. I rebought the Bathys, and, while I do think they are better sounding headphones than the PX8, they are simply not as good a travel companion or as comfortable to wear.

The ML 5909s are, essentially, a punt by me to see if it is possible to get the overall package of the PX8s with better sound quality. I'm still a fan of the PX8s - they have served me very well.

 

[Jazzophile]

Back on the PX8s, I've so far found the BT headphone journey to be about compromise and I'd settled on the PX8s as providing that best compromise for my own usage cases. I rebought the Bathys, and, while I do think they are better sounding headphones than there PX8, they are simply not as good a travel companion or as comfortable to wear.

The ML 5909s are, essentially, a punt by me to see if it is possible to get the overall package of the PX8s with better sound quality. I'm still a fan of the PX8s - they have served me very well.

I liked everything (except for one key thing) about the PX8s, including their ability to step down to APTX-HD on my Pixel! I do wish they had LDAC codec support. That said, the sound quality was deficient enough to me that I could not justify keeping such an expensive pair of cans when I prioritze sound quality more heavily than perhaps some here do.

I, too, wanted just the right compromise of all elements and if they sounded a little bit more neutral, I'd have kept them. I understand your position as to the best compromise.

For the moment, I'll keep using a number of other cans in my rotation for Bluetooth / mobile use. I use over the ear and in ear TWS depending on what I'm doing. At the gym, in ear. At home or in a coffee shop, usually over the ear. At my desk, I go wired into a nice headphone amp (Schiit Lyr), running 24/96 or 24/192 whenever possible out of Amazon Music or Apple Music using some high end wired cans. It all depends on the use case of the moment.

I too will keep looking...but it's a luxury to own what I own and be able to rotate through and enjoy each for what they offer. As examples, I bought the M&D MW65 for $95 (essentially new but without accessories) from Ebay. I paid $99 on Woot for new in the box Philips Fidelio L3. Bought the Sony XM5 refurb for $200 on Secondipity. I just won't pay full boat retail for these items....and none of them are quite the right fit all in one. Same kind of deal on my Shure Aonics, Sony XM4s and others.

Will keep looking for the holy grail, but will also wait a bit as the next frontier is true lossless TWS either over Bluetooth or Wifi. Of course phones won't support that for a while either....so it will be a measured search.

People on this forum will hate me for saying this....but the Sony XM5 is about as close a complete combo of good sound, noise cancellation, comfort and codec support. On the Sony, I have to do something I hate doing. Use EQ to tone down the sub bass about 3 notches. That really makes the XM5 sound good and relatively neutral. But it still doesn't offer the best of sound quality compared to the Shure Aonic 50. Like I said earlier, the Shure would be perfect if it had great ANC.

I'll be curious as to your assessment of the ML5909. And from what I've read, that's a very similar can to the M&D MW75....correct me if I"m wrong.

 

[AcademicBarzo]

I liked everything (except for one key thing) about the PX8s, including their ability to step down to APTX-HD on my Pixel! I do wish they had LDAC codec support. That said, the sound quality was deficient enough to me that I could not justify keeping such an expensive pair of cans when I prioritze sound quality more heavily than perhaps some here do.

I, too, wanted just the right compromise of all elements and if they sounded a little bit more neutral, I'd have kept them. I understand your position as to the best compromise.

For the moment, I'll keep using a number of other cans in my rotation for Bluetooth / mobile use. I use over the ear and in ear TWS depending on what I'm doing. At the gym, in ear. At home or in a coffee shop, usually over the ear. At my desk, I go wired into a nice headphone amp (Schiit Lyr), running 24/96 or 24/192 whenever possible out of Amazon Music or Apple Music using some high end wired cans. It all depends on the use case of the moment.

I too will keep looking...but it's a luxury to own what I own and be able to rotate through and enjoy each for what they offer. As examples, I bought the M&D MW65 for $95 (essentially new but without accessories) from Ebay. I paid $99 on Woot for new in the box Philips Fidelio L3. Bought the Sony XM5 refurb for $200 on Secondipity. I just won't pay full boat retail for these items....and none of them are quite the right fit all in one. Same kind of deal on my Shure Aonics, Sony XM4s and others.

Will keep looking for the holy grail, but will also wait a bit as the next frontier is true lossless TWS either over Bluetooth or Wifi. Of course phones won't support that for a while either....so it will be a measured search.

People on this forum will hate me for saying this....but the Sony XM5 is about as close a complete combo of good sound, noise cancellation, comfort and codec support. On the Sony, I have to do something I hate doing. Use EQ to tone down the sub bass about 3 notches. That really makes the XM5 sound good and relatively neutral. But it still doesn't offer the best of sound quality compared to the Shure Aonic 50. Like I said earlier, the Shure would be perfect if it had great ANC.

I'll be curious as to your assessment of the ML5909. And from what I've read, that's a very similar can to the M&D MW75....correct me if I"m wrong.

No idea re the MW75s. I know they share the same OEM, but I'd suspect they are turned very differently.

 

[shooter]

Long time headphone and audiophile snob here. First pair of high end headphones were Stax Lambda electrostatic headphones purchased in the 1980s, which I still own. I have a very large collection of headphones and in-ear headphones, as well as TWS in-ear buds of various brands. I would say I'm as much of a headphone collector and snob as anyone here. I use the term snob sarcastically and humorously, but isn't that what this is really all about?

A few headphones I own--Several models of Stax electrostatic. Orthodynamic headphones from Yamaha from the 70s and 80s (HP1, YH100, heavily modded). Sennheiser 580. Audeze EL8 closed back. Audeze LCD2 open back. Another Audeze whose model is escaping me. HiFiMan HE500. B&W P5, Oppo 3 (planar magnetic). Many, many other models that are hard wired models. Also many bluetooth headphones, including Master and Dynamic MW50 & MW65. Philips Fidelio L3, AKG N60, Sony WH XM4 and Sony WH M5, Shure Aonic 50. In ear models include Shure SE846 & SE535, Westone W80, W60, 3, Ultimate Ears Triple Fi, TWS in ears include Philips Fidelio T1, B&O EQ, Sennheiser Momentum 3, Sony WF XM4, Pixel Buds Pro, Galaxy Buds Pro 2. I also have Audio Research and Conrad Johnson tube equipment (amps, preamps), high end speakers from KEF, Monitor Audio, old Infinity Kappa 8, have owned electrostatic and planar magnetic speakers from Martin Logan and Apogee over the years, etc. etc. etc.

I say all of that not to brag or boast. It's a bit ridiculous and of course a bit obsessive, and I freely admit it. Been collecting and obsessing over sound, audio, gear and headphones since my teens. I primarily listen to acoustic jazz but also enjoy rock, funk, classical, etc.

Long intro and preamble into saying that I've been listening to and struggling with the sound of the B&W PX8 since November. I received a mildly defective set the first go round (slight hissing in the right ear when moved into odd positions on my head) but otherwise sounded fine. Returned those to Amazon and got another pair post haste which sounded identical to the first pair minus the defect. Like a few on this forum, I've struggled with the sound quality of these. I know that most of you love, love love these headphones and I respect that. I love how comfy they are on the ears and head. I love the design....the height of industrial quality and aesthetics. I love the looks, the leather, the functionality. I love B&W as a company. I got a great deal on the white/tan ones on Amazon when they had them on special for $519 last fall.....but I just cannot get on board with what I perceive to be the deficiencies in their frequency curve.

It's been discussed many times here. A bloated bass (even after the firmware update). A dip in the upper mids and lower highs. The biggest sin to me is the bloated mid-bass. It gets in the way of so much of the mids and high frequencies of these cans. Some tracks, to be fair, sound brilliant on these cans. But most tracks just do not. I have really given them a fair shake over the holidays and took them over to Europe on a plane and back....and they function perfectly, the noise canceling was plenty good, etc. No matter how much time I've given them and me to adjust to their sound characteristics, I decided this week to send them back (extended holiday return period from Amazon). It was a slow and painful decision given how much I like everything about them except for their sound. Too dark. Too bloated in the mid-bass. Too much of a dip in the upper mids and low highs.....on about 75% of the tracks I have heard. The 25% sound great....but that's just not enough of a positive ratio.

Although the noise canceling is not as good, I prefer the sound of the Master & Dynamic MW65 I own....it's flatter, more neutral and a bit more sparkly on the top end, which I happen to enjoy, while generally being a flatter curve across the frequency spectrum than I perceive of the B&Ws. I know, many others here will disagree with me on this. The M&Ds sound better than my Sony XM4 and XM5 over ears, but do not block as much sound out. The Sonys are brilliant for that.

Sigh....just wishing I could have enjoyed the B&Ws more. Wanted to post here realizing that I'm in the extreme minority and have read each and every page of this forum over the past couple of months. Intrigued by your admiration for the sound of these when I have 40 years of enjoying high end audio in my background and know what good sound is and should be, and just don't quite hear it out of these cans.

The best over ear bluetooth headphones I've heard are the Shure Aonic 50 (given that the noise cancellation sucks on them), and the M&D MW65 (decent but not great noise cancellation). The Philips L3 sounds good, not great, odd, good noise cancellation but a funny sound signature overall. I know the Focals are supposed to be great, as are the Mark Levinsons....and perhaps the newer M&D MW75. That said, I'm not desperate and will keep auditioning. I am one who buys things in the cheap. The B&Ws were a splurge for me at that price, even though it was a good discount off of retail. All others I tend to buy used, open box, etc. to get extreme discounts off of new. And thus, the B&Ws are going to have to go back after a long demo.

I know that I like a slightly brighter, livelier (and I'll go so far as to call it more neutral) sound signature overall than is offered by the PX8. The MW65 offer that in bluetooth, as do the Shures. I also enjoy warmer sounding headphones that don't have as much deviation from neutral as I find the PX8 to have. Just something about these that do not sound right to me. Many months ago there was a review on YouTube where the reviewer said that this headphone just sounded bad and wrong out of the box (he was comparing these to two other models, I can't recall which). I am sad to say that I feel he was dead on correct.

That all said, I want to thank everyone on here for their comments, knowledge, research, observations, recommendations and input into this forum. It was highly enjoyable to be a spectator and hear everyone's opinions and assessments. Mine differ from the great majority....but I trust my ears as I know you all do.

Enjoy the PX8,all....and thank you for allowing me the space here to write and share my thoughts.

Regards,
Jazzophile

Couldn't describe how it sounds better.

 

[angelom]

I'll be curious as to your assessment of the ML5909. And from what I've read, that's a very similar can to the M&D MW75....correct me if I"m wrong.

The mw75 and ml 5909 apparently share a very similar, if not the same, driver, but the tonal balance is different. The 5909 is have better and more correct FR from posts that I reading of people hearing and/or testing both (I never owning the mw75). Dr. Sean Olive contributing to the development of the 5909.

After the Solitaire T and iO-12 the 5909 is the best sounding ANC headphone, in my view, and is the only other premium ANC headphone that you can using fully passively too, like the Solitaire T and iO-12.

 

[Tenlow]

Personally, I think the PX8 sound their absolute best when connected directly via USB-C to my MacBook Pro. To me, the sound is much clearer, more defined and controlled and less „bloaty“ in the mid bass region. So, that has been my main usage recently.

1. USB-C
2. AptX Adaptive
3. AAC (iPhone)
4. 3.5mm wired

I try to have ANC switched off unless really needed. Helps the sound a bit as well. In the B&W app, I have bass reduced by 2db and treble at roughly +2db. That way they sound really good to my ears but still nothing comes close to the USB-C wired option.

 

[WillieS]

Personally, I think the PX8 sound their absolute best when connected directly via USB-C to my MacBook Pro. To me, the sound is much clearer, more defined and controlled and less „bloaty“ in the mid bass region. So, that has been my main usage recently.

1. USB-C
2. AptX Adaptive
3. AAC (iPhone)
4. 3.5mm wired

I try to have ANC switched off unless really needed. Helps the sound a bit as well. In the B&W app, I have bass reduced by 2db and treble at roughly +2db. That way they sound really good to my ears but still nothing comes close to the USB-C wired option.

I wish I had your ears , I honestly can't tell the difference between USB-C and Bluetooth , both sound equally good . I think I have reasonably good hearing for my age , 66 . Just curious is it a really obvious difference you hear that is unmistakable or do you need to concentrate to notice the difference . On another level I am quite happy I don't see a difference as it is more convenient to use Bluetooth . I wonder how many on this Forum are like me , possibly quite few as it probably attracts people who can distinguish between very good and very very good sound quality .

 

[Tenlow]

I wish I had your ears , I honestly can't tell the difference between USB-C and Bluetooth , both sound equally good . I think I have reasonably good hearing for my age , 66 . Just curious is it a really obvious difference you hear that is unmistakable or do you need to concentrate to notice the difference . On another level I am quite happy I don't see a difference as it is more convenient to use Bluetooth . I wonder how many on this Forum are like me , possibly quite few as it probably attracts people who can distinguish between very good and very very good sound quality .

I‘m 38 years old, still have close to perfect ears (thank god) and to me the difference is clearly noticeable. It’s not so much that I can always hear the difference in compressed vs lossless music per se, it’s just that the PX8 especially sounds different via USB-C (better) than it does via bluetooth. I doubt the difference here is the lossless transmission alone, though, it almost sounds like the tuning slightly changes (and for the better, as described).

 

[begor]

To mirror what Jazzophile is saying above, it is also hard for me to come back to PX8 after a couple of months with IO-12. I am ready to compromise when it comes to BT headphones (that is why I got and enjoyed PX8 at the first place), but after IO-12 it sounds like too much is being compromised.

The portability/design/feel are still great, though