[sleepkyng]

x1-

in terms of creative writing, all that has been said above is true and will find you success

however, the "key" to great writing, in terms of creative writing really doesn't start with grammar. This is not to say that you dont need these skills, but if you are thinking of writing creatively and this is a focus of yours, i find that freewriting is (in terms of getting ideas out and forming stories, characters etc.) the best and easiest exercise.

just start writing anything and everything that comes to mind.

if you want to get better at just good ole smooth flowin' discourse and expositions, then i suggest you start with personal and expository essays.

essays are essentially written explanations and explorations of topics. the better you are at them, the better you are at writing. Your grammar, sentence fluency yada yada yada will be forced to improve when writing successful essays.

books on writing are great, but writing and getting critiques from peers and teachers is far better imo

just an offer: perhaps writing a short 2-3 page personal essay and posting it here and seeing what constructive criticism people might have? that way we can really know where you are in terms of skill level

cheers!


edit: i'll take xiangjing, dostoevsky or flaubert over hemmingway anyday.

CARVER even!

 

[Gariver]

I found an interesting quote while searching the web...

"The Flesch-Kincaid Readability Formula is the United States Government Department of Defense standard (DOD MIL-M-38784B). The government requires its use by contractors producing manuals for the armed services."

For the Department of Defense, clarity is a must! It is also the law! You really don't want a dummy firing a nuclear missile by mistake! Right?

Recommendations...
You should aim for clarity in your writing!

 

[Bill Ward]

Quote:

Recommendations...

And never mix your metaphors.

BW

 

[stuartr]

sleepkyng is of course correct about creative writing. The problem is that people in general are so incredibly horrible at writing that they need to start from the bottom up. I read hundreds of essays a quarter by students at UCSB and the vast majority are frighteningly bad. They would be far better if the students just transcribed verbatim what they thought. I don't think this speaks to the quality of the student at UCSB as much as to the quality of public school writing instruction. I really believe that there is too much emphasis on stylistic freedom in high-school English classes. Students are told to write whatever they like; as a result they never learn how to express themselves properly. You should only begin to contemplate creative writing once you can write a flawless analytical essay. There are exceptions of course, but they are exceptions of genius, not of personal preference. In general, I would not trust your peers or teachers, because they will probably be sub-par as well. I have read papers here by 40 year old grad students that sound like they were dictated by Koko the Gorilla. Trust Fowler, read well-written novels (pre-1960) and look to magazines like Harper's, The New York Review of Books or British newspapers.

Sorry if this is so surly, but I really think the state of writing in the US is abysmal. Even published academic writing in history is usually poorly written.

Oh, and Hemingway is nice for clarity, but if you truly want to see beautiful writing, look to Nabokov, Salinger, Poe or Fitzgerald. I only say pre-1960, because novels of this era had more standard style of prose than the experimental stuff that has dominated good writing since then.

 

[sleepkyng]

Stuart-

woah! no love for Coetzee, Tyspkin, Calvino, Greene or Borges???

i agree that foundation fundamentals are the way to go, but it would be great if x1 had a teacher or someone to guide him through some lesson plans. i know that that knowledge and experience really helped me.

i don't know that i agree that analytical essays are the ONLY way to begin teaching good writing skills, but i agree that it is the easiest to start with.

 

[chadbang]

I used to work for ETS (Educational Testing Service) the verbal section of their test is created to be informative yet easy to understand. The level of readership it strives for is that of the average Time magazine reader. Read a couple issues of Time and see how accessible -- almost chatty -- good, intelligent writing can be. You don't have to dazzle anyone with verbage to produce good, smart writing.

 

[Gariver]

chadbang:

You are right! If you want to improve your writing skills, you should imitate Time magazine's writers. Their sentence length is very good. I mean, they write to be quickly understood. I'm sure Rudolf Flesch would give them his approval.

With the passage of time, the number of words per sentence has been coming down. As the complexity of modern life increases, there is a need for shorter and shorter sentences. Why is this true? We have less time nowdays! We are simply too busy! Therefore, we want to understand our reading material rapidly! Hence, Time's familiar ad should be: Read Time to understand RAPIDLY! That's their aim!

Sentence Length in History...
--Pre-Elizabethan = 50 words per sentence.
--Elizabethan Age = 45 wps
--Victorian Age = 30 wps
--Time Magazine = 15 to 25 wps with a 20 wps average.

Before reading Flesch's books, my writing was too complex and too self-centered. Reasons for this? My sentences were too long and difficult to read. There was too much ego in them. Then, after I integrated Flesch's principles, I quickly became "other oriented."

Nowdays, I try forget about "my writing style." That's too egocentric! Instead, I concentrate on writing with my reader in mind. I want him to understand my writing RAPIDLY! That's my aim!

sleepkyng:
At Columbia University, you can not write a thesis without the right and proper punctuation. Capitals are a must! If you do write without capitals, you will be ordered to rewrite and resubmit your work. That makes a lot of sense! After all, Columbia runs The Pulitzer Prize!

 

[sleepkyng]

i wonder what e e cummings would think...

 

[Gariver]

Who cares? Periods provide the reader with a "stop sign." While a capital letter gives you a "green light" for the next sentence. Hey, I happen to like it that way! Proper punctuation provides clarity, and clarity is a must in writing! Hmm. You don't agree, right?

Oh, well! "That's the way the cookie crumbles."

Hey, how about being perfect in your writing and rebellious in another aspect of your life? That's a thought to ponder! It could be a good compromise, a solution of sorts!

 

[sleepkyng]

i have nothing against good punctuation and grammar, my essays are perfect and very sound when it comes to those aspects.

i enjoy hemmingway and every other streamlined writer out there who has mastered that style, but to say that that is the BEST and ONLY way to write is preposterous.

Flaubert would be turning in his grave right now.

Tsypkin's "Summer in Baden Baden" is a series of long stretched out sentences that build and build creating visual and emotional landscapes that are quite different and just as effective as hemmingway's use of starkly beautiful short sentences.

Rebellious? I don't think so. Just because Flesch and TIME magazine (a magazine that i find repulsive in its superficiality) say that ONE way is the right way does not make it the status quo.

 

[stuartr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepkyng i have nothing against good punctuation and grammar, my essays are perfect and very sound when it comes to those aspects. i enjoy hemmingway and every other streamlined writer out there who has mastered that style, but to say that that is the BEST and ONLY way to write is preposterous. Flaubert would be turning in his grave right now. Tsypkin's "Summer in Baden Baden" is a series of long stretched out sentences that build and build creating visual and emotional landscapes that are quite different and just as effective as hemmingway's use of starkly beautiful short sentences. Rebellious? I don't think so. Just because Flesch and TIME magazine (a magazine that i find repulsive in its superficiality) say that ONE way is the right way does not make it the status quo.

I am with you on every point, but I did not really have time to write it all out myself. Also, Chadbang -- I agree that intelligent writing does not have to be difficult, but I also don't know if I would place Time as my standard for accessible intelligent writing. Perhaps in the 70s, but certainly not the issues I have read. I think a good example of clear, intelligent writing would be "Cosmos" by Carl Sagan or Richard Feynman's autobiography, "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman". But like sleepkyng said, there is no one way to do it. I also love to read Thomas Pynchon, whose writing is extremely baroque and loose with grammatical rules. If there were one way to write, reading would be boring. THAT SAID, I think there should be a basic level of competance that all people should be required to achieve. The analytical essay is something that is both fairly easy to master and useful for a number of different applications (business writing, political purposes, as well as academic), so I think it is as good a standard as any.

 

[Gariver]

"i have nothing against good punctuation and grammar, my essays are perfect and very sound when it comes to those aspects."

Hey, you started that sentence without a capital. He, he! Old habits are hard to change!

We are clearly in two very different camps! I happen to like Time Magazine, and I don't find it to be superficial. Status quo? Sure! Why not? Columbia does not give out degrees: You have to earn your degree! And you do that by working extremely hard and doing what they expect of you! Therefore, you play by the rules, or you are out!

Anyway, I just added another tip to the Readable Writing Basics. Here it is...

As you write, try to edit your work.

 

[stuartr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gariver "i have nothing against good punctuation and grammar, my essays are perfect and very sound when it comes to those aspects." Hey, you started that sentence without a capital. He, he! Old habits are hard to change! We are clearly in two very different camps! I happen to like Time Magazine, and I don't find it to be superficial. Status quo? Sure! Why not? Columbia does not give out degrees: You have to earn your degree! And you do that by working extremely hard and doing what they expect of you! Therefore, you play by the rules, or you are out! Anyway, I just added another tip to the Readable Writing Basics. Here it is... As you write, try to edit your work.

Gavriver -- You don't seem to get it. Sleepkyng's lack of capitalization is not because he doesn't know how to capitalize, it is because he does not bother to do so on a web-forum. I am sure all his essays or formal writing follows grammatical rules. And what's the deal with Columbia? Sure, it's a good school, but it's no harder than any other elite university. Having gone to one, I can tell you that there are plenty of people who do not work hard and slip through despite being stupid and lazy. Just because someone has graduated from Columbia does not mean they can write.

 

[sleepkyng]

Picasso's paintings have straight lines in them. In these paintings the straight lines are very effective, Picasso only uses straight lines.

THEREFORE

all good paintings only use straight lines


poor Magritte!

 

[x1lexure]

Went to Powell's Used Books today and picked up 4 items-
Fowler's Modern English Usage Second Edition $6.50
Flesch's The Art Of Readable Writing $2.50
Turabian's A Manual For Writers $4.50
Gordon's The Transitive Vampire $4.25

Not bad for under $20 huh? Thanks for your help fellas!